The Unexpected Challenges of Pitching Your Ecommerce Co on Dragons’ Den | Millie Flemington-Clare

Matt Edmundson (00:01)

Well, hello, my name is Matt Edmondson and you are listening to the eCommerce podcast. I have been an eCommercer since 2002. Yes, I have, ladies and gentlemen, a very long time. And these days I partner with eCommerce brands to help them grow, scale and exit. And if you'd like to know more about how that works, and if we could actually work together, head over to our website, eCommercepodcast.net. It's all there. But that's enough.

about me today. I am joined with a delightful guest, Millie Flemington-Clair from Human Beauty. Millie, it's fair to say that I've been looking forward to this conversation since, well, since we spoke, I think it was in February, we sort of connected, didn't we? And this is one of our founder episodes. So you run your own e-commerce business, but it's fair to say you've got a bit of a story.

which is, well, I'm just gonna say something short of inspiring really. So give us a little bit of background about you.

Millie Flemington-Clare (01:09)

Yeah, so I was born with a rare condition called cystinosis. It's a condition that only affects around 2,000 people in the world and it mainly affects my kidneys but I was also tube-fed until I was 18 and I'm only 4 foot 6. So I grew up

I'm kind desperate to fit in in and out of hospital and it was very apparent I was different to like my peers and I found who I am and my self-expression through makeup but the beauty industry isn't and wasn't very inclusive or accessible and that was kind of what made me really want to start my own journey in owning my own

Matt Edmundson (01:35)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (02:00)

beauty brand and kind of making sure I be the representation that I wish I'd seen when I was a teenager because yeah, didn't feel represented and I think it would have helped me discover who I am sooner if I had seen more of me.

Matt Edmundson (02:06)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, we're going to dig into all of that, which I'm I mean, we had a brief, like I said, we had quite a bit of a chat in February and I just loved it. And since you and I spoke, those listening in the UK that watch a certain TV show called Dragons Den may either remember your or do you go that that name sounds familiar. Dragons Den is the equivalent of Shark Tank in the US and you were on there recently.

Millie Flemington-Clare (02:43)

was yeah aired on the 27th of February so it's nearly been a month month this week

Matt Edmundson (02:49)

nearly

been a month since you were on there. And in fact, it's series 22, episode eight, according to the BBC iPlayer. And it's the last episode in this current season. And so somehow, I mean, I know there are there are are some nuances to this journey, but you somehow got onto Dragon's Den, you pitched to the dragons on there.

Millie Flemington-Clare (03:00)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson (03:15)

And to quote Deborah, you came away with the best deal that has ever been given on Dragon's Den because you retained all of your business, but got the help of three dragons, at least on air you did. The reality of that may or may not be different. I don't want to presume. So let's, if you don't mind, let's start there. How was that?

Millie Flemington-Clare (03:26)

Thank

how I was pitching or being on the den.

Matt Edmundson (03:36)

Yeah, because

I remember watching the show, right? And there's this clip on the show where you're going up in the in the lift or the elevator for American cousins, and you're going up and there's that big deep breath that you take in and I'm like, you've you looked like you were slightly nervous. And this was kind of your way of just calming yourself a little bit.

Millie Flemington-Clare (03:45)

the faith.

Yeah, yeah. Well, spoiler alert, the lift is fake. Yeah, and yeah, so I was really, really nervous. I mean, I've been watching the show since I was about seven, and it was always my dream to be on the show. know, pitching and public speaking is a nerve-racking thing anyway. It had been a whole day of preparation, and I'd been in and out of that lift, to be honest, for 40 minutes.

Matt Edmundson (04:02)

is it?

Mm.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (04:27)

Yeah, yeah, and they definitely keep you in the lift for a bit just, you know, to build that, that tension and the thing. But yeah, that was my like, like game time, it's time to time to go and do my thing. And trying to breathe because yeah, I knew I was about to do a pitch for like a minute and half. And when I pitch, I sometimes forget to breathe. And I just thought I speed talk and then I just suddenly mid-centered to go.

Matt Edmundson (04:28)

or filming all the different takes.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (04:56)

So yeah, it was, it's TV, isn't it? So you don't think about these things when you watch it for years. Actually, like, it's a set ultimately, and it is a TV show. But the pitch was exhilarating and terrifying. The relief of that, was over. I completely forgot, like, at the end you have to like...

Matt Edmundson (05:01)

Yeah.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (05:25)

you usually say, dragons, you've got some samples under your seat or, whatever. And I kind of just did my pitch and was kind of like this and they're like, are you going to tell us what's under our seat? yeah. yeah. You know, you've got some products under your seat. And they made us do that all for catwalk when my brand is a makeup brand. don't, we're not, we're not doing catwalks. So yeah, it was, it was an experience.

Matt Edmundson (05:36)

Okay.

Millie Flemington-Clare (05:54)

say the very least and it was months and months of preparation that led to that moment. But I was really happy in the end with how you know my pitch went. I try not to when I do pitches I try not to like practice like word for word script it because if I mess up my brain doesn't work like that I'll then be like I can't continue.

Matt Edmundson (06:00)

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (06:17)

So was different every time I practiced, but overall it went really well. And I was in there for about an hour and 20 minutes answering questions.

Matt Edmundson (06:27)

really?

Because it's like three minutes on the show, isn't it?

Millie Flemington-Clare (06:30)

Yeah, so I did my pitch, they asked a couple questions to my models, they left and then it was yeah about an hour I was in there so they cut an hour over an hour footage down to 13 minutes I think I got in the end.

Matt Edmundson (06:43)

And I mean, you said that it was your dream to go on there and I'm curious as to, started this e-commerce business, Human Beauty, which you mentioned a few years ago, two years ago, just under two years, I think, isn't it?

Millie Flemington-Clare (06:59)

Well, technically it was, it was 2022. because I, I basically, was just after COVID. I'd been kind of in the works. And then I got the opportunity to appear on a documentary series. And they are, they have like about 10 million subscribers across the world. I was like, wow, I'm, I was just about to go traveling for a few months.

Matt Edmundson (07:07)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (07:29)

So I got a website up. I didn't really have product. Why I didn't have product, physical product with me. And I was just like, I'll just put it up, go traveling. And in case people want to pre-order, you know, so that is technically when it started. But like really properly in the last year and a half is when I've been actually doing it.

Matt Edmundson (07:30)

Mm.

Yeah, no fair play. So it's a fairly young business. And so were you of the mind, this is an opportunity to get on Dragon's Den, it's a show I've always wanted to been on, or were you of the mind of, actually, this actually could be quite useful, whether or not I get the investment, I'm on BBC TV, there's PR that goes alongside that, et cetera, et cetera. I'm kind of curious, what was your reasoning to go on the show?

Millie Flemington-Clare (08:18)

Yeah, I mean, firstly, as I said, was I kind of always as a young person, when I was like a kid wanting to own my business, that was like, you've made it if you if you were on the show. But yeah, ultimately, whether I got I didn't need the investment, I didn't need the money. You know, they cut they cut my last year of financials. So it made me look like I had like 900 pounds in the bank. But

Matt Edmundson (08:38)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (08:48)

Ultimately, that just wasn't true. I'd won £60,000 in grant funding and pitch competitions. But the PR and being able to get out there in front of a wider audience and get my messaging and my purpose out there was ultimately the goal. Having mentorship and help from the Dragons was also the goal.

Matt Edmundson (08:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (09:16)

that having the idea of it being on national TV was ultimately the main goal.

Matt Edmundson (09:22)

And so if I can ask, what happened to the business then after the TV show was aired?

Millie Flemington-Clare (09:30)

Yeah, so on the evening, we had a kind of load of thousands of people on our website. think overall we had about 20,000 people on the website, which was which was good. Not as many as I thought, like in that space of time. But again, it didn't really cross my mind that people don't watch live TV anymore. And no one watches, especially no one my age.

Matt Edmundson (09:53)

That's so true.

Millie Flemington-Clare (09:58)

even has a TV license. So watching BBC is not even on their radar. Like half a million people last year started paying for TV licenses. we grew on social media, but again, I think we gained like 2000 followers, which from mentors I'd spoken to that had been on the show five years ago, that was like nothing.

Matt Edmundson (10:05)

Yeah.

Bye.

Right.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (10:28)

And we gained, we got quite a few sales, like a couple hundred sales over the next, like that evening and the next few days, which all really great. I reached a whole new audience that I never thought I would in terms of demographic, age demographic. My age demographic probably went up by 30 years, 20 to 30 years. So, you know, overall we did get

Matt Edmundson (10:44)

Mm.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (10:58)

out there, but not particularly out there to the people I thought, or I would have wanted to reach. cause yeah, then it, it, how we communicate with these people and the customer service and all these things you don't think of and processes before have now been a bit of a pain in the ass.

Matt Edmundson (11:06)

Yeah.

Hahaha

Yeah, yeah, as you get there, yeah, I can appreciate that. I remember when we launched our beauty website, I think I've told this story before on the show, but we'd launched a beauty website. But this is a long time ago, this is 2006 when we launched the site. And we thought that by the end of the year,

So we had like four months to go until the end of the year, right? So we thought in that four months, if we could do about 10,000 pounds worth of sales, we were on track, you know, without what we predicted that, you know, we could potentially do with some clever marketing. We thought we could probably do about 50 grand in our first year. So in the first four months, if we hit 10 grand, we'd be okay.

But we didn't do 10,000 pounds in sales in our first four months. We did 400,000 pounds in sales in the first four months. And the result of that was quite extraordinary. So you have to rethink a lot of what you once knew, right? So, and this is what you're finding out that actually all of a sudden, mean, managing a business which is rapidly growing is fundamentally a wonderful problem to have.

But it is still a problem. And there are still things that you have to think about and you have to deal with and you have to adapt to and so on and so forth. And it was just, I just remember that phase. mean, to be fair, I didn't have to deal with most of it because we just did the website of things. It was just great. it was quite an extraordinary time. And so I can see how you would have a few things that you now have to deal with.

Millie Flemington-Clare (12:41)

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson (13:07)

Has the momentum stayed or was it sort of a blip?

Millie Flemington-Clare (13:12)

No, like this is the first time ever I've not had a single day without sales. but again, it, I was slightly disappointed because I had in my head figures that I'd known people in the past versus what I had done. so although like, actually now I've taken a step back, this is amazing because this is more than I've ever, ever made, but it's still like, is it enough? And are we, is the then like,

Matt Edmundson (13:16)

Mm.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (13:41)

the next step and the future of my business that is, you know, it wasn't this overnight thing that I kind of in my head thought it would be. but we have, we are still having sales every day and ultimately the people that are my target audience don't watch the show. So it's now about resharing the clips and kind of, you know, trying to make the most of the

Matt Edmundson (13:44)

Yeah.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (14:08)

press on social media because the people I have reached, don't have social media. They don't even particularly know how to use emails, a lot of them. So yeah, but it stayed. Obviously the night of it was huge, but sales are plodding along, which is good.

Matt Edmundson (14:10)

Yay.

Yeah.

It's interesting, isn't it? I remember we had Lucy from Tom Jewelry on the show and her business took a turn when Stacey Solomon was pictured wearing her jewelry. I think Stacey was wearing it when she got married. And to be totally full disclosure, I love Stacey. I think she's incredible. My wife and I are always watching the TV shows. I think she's great.

And again, if you're outside of the UK, Stacey is, she's a UK TV personality who is, it's just lovely. So she's very real, isn't she, Stacey? And, yeah, Lucy was talking about how she was photographed at her wedding with her jewelry. so Lucy's whole MO then became about using that in her social media. It wasn't like the world picked up on the fact that Stacey was wearing, Lucy's jewelry. Lucy had to tell the world.

Millie Flemington-Clare (14:59)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson (15:22)

on, and I think she still does in many ways. And I think, it used to be, I remember years ago, there was, what's the, there's a self tan. Or notes that I can't remember the name of it was super popular for a period of time. And, the, remember the brand wasn't really doing anything. And then somebody in the press took a picture of Victoria Beckham, you know, carrying a carrier bag with the logo on the front.

Millie Flemington-Clare (15:52)

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson (15:52)

And then

all of a sudden everybody wanted that fake tank because Victoria Beckham was using it. And I get that that influencer aspect is quite important with famous influencers. Like you say, I think it's different now. People don't read magazines. They don't really watch live TV. It's all moved on. And so I see why you're probably in a phase now where you can use those clips, I'm guessing, for social proof, right?

Millie Flemington-Clare (16:08)

Yeah.

Well,

yeah, well, yes and no. Technically, we're not allowed, like, you're not, it says you're not allowed to use clips from the show, promote your business. But we all know that every single business that has ever been on Dragons then uses clips from the show and puts, you know, a big banner with pictures on their website that says, seen on. So yeah, there was like, there was businesses that were

Matt Edmundson (16:21)

Okay.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (16:46)

breaking the rules of the guidelines that we'd been given before they'd even been on the show. So yeah, I am now going to use the clips. It's just, I think it's more of an ask for forgiveness, not permission situation. Because they do say that they're meant to approve any piece of content you ever post in relation to it. But yeah, mean, how many ads have you seen from like...

Matt Edmundson (16:48)

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (17:16)

Fosse deodorant or, you know, all those brands that have been on it. so yeah, it's now, you know, figuring out like how I, how I use it, how I want to go about talking about it and sharing the clips. Cause they're believe they managed to cut any conversation about my actual products out of the edit. they spent like a whole hour talking about my mascara.

Matt Edmundson (17:17)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (17:42)

And I thought, we'll do a little cute social media post like with mascara count, like how many times the dragon said the word mascara. And they didn't say mascara once in the entire edit. and yeah, so there isn't actually much like product based stuff that I could even use to technically promote your business. so yeah, it's just kind of being clever with how I, how I use it and how I want to go about it next.

Matt Edmundson (17:59)

Mm. Mm.

Yeah, which makes sense. It's I'm curious, how did you do you mentioned and I don't want to put words in your mouth, Millie, but you mentioned that you were a little bit disappointed with the both the exposure and I suppose like the resulting social media followers and the sales, I suppose a little bit out after drag, you thought that would be bigger. And if I'm honest with you, every entrepreneur that's ever started a business, irrespective of whether they've been on Dragon's Den,

Millie Flemington-Clare (18:18)

Okay.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson (18:40)

always wanted it to be bigger and better than it was. Have you dealt with that?

Millie Flemington-Clare (18:46)

difficultly to be honest. It all became a bit overwhelming. On the night, everyone, you know, I'm a perfectionist and like a lot of business owners, like I had an idea in my head. So when it fell short of it, I was disappointed. And as much as people have good intention around me, they're like, no, but it's amazing. Like, look at this. you know, all I could think of is what wasn't.

Matt Edmundson (19:04)

Hmm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (19:16)

in the edit and obviously I'm the only one who knew what actually was said and done and I also had an idea of what would have made the cut in terms of TV. So having as much as people meant well, the more people said no but you came across so well or you're doing amazing, it kind of annoyed me more. But I've just been trying to take a step back and look at the actual amazing achievements that we have got.

Matt Edmundson (19:17)

Mm.

Right.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (19:46)

and taking a step back from social media and emails and trying to find some kind of balance between my work and my life where that starts and that ends in the last couple of weeks because yeah, I was becoming really overwhelmed with just the sheer amount of work because I've been packaging all the orders myself, I've been dealing with customers and I ended up accidentally sending out

a few bits of faulty product. and it's the first time this has ever happened. I've had faulty product. So we've got that, you know, we've got hundreds of people or like a hundred people. Their first experience is a bad one. and I put my heart and soul into these products and I've never had to deal with it. and then having customers email me almost like kind of attack him in, like I purposely sent them tell product.

Matt Edmundson (20:20)

Mm.

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (20:44)

It was really devastating and trying

to like pick myself back up and see how this continues was, you know, it's been hard but trying to celebrate the small wins has been a big help.

Matt Edmundson (20:48)

Mm.

Yeah, yeah. How did you approach that customer service problem?

Millie Flemington-Clare (21:03)

I've got a VA through Access to Work who kind of helps with my life admin and stuff and at first I tried to tackle it all which wasn't a good idea because again I'm too close to the problem I'm too close to what I know it should be and so at first I was replying to emails all hours and I've been bombarded by them

and I didn't have much patience for people, for people. Yeah, because I was like, you've watched me on national TV, crying on national TV, my heart and soul out. And then you email me being horrible and saying I'm disgraceful and using really mean words, almost like I've done it on purpose. I'm trying to scam you or people are

Matt Edmundson (21:35)

especially mean people.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (21:59)

really impatient for their parcels as well. We've had that a lot, people waiting more than days. So I then realized I very quickly needed to outsource it and get someone else that's not so close to it to deal with it. Because yeah, as I say, I was taking it personally.

Matt Edmundson (22:05)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and you have to develop a little bit of a thick skin, I think, in e-commerce. Mainly because I think if you...

I'm sure there is some proper name for this, which if I thought about it, I would dredge it up from the back of my head. But the interesting thing is if you buy something from a shop and you then take it back to the shop, you appreciate that the person in front of you was not the source of the problem, right? But they're the person that can help you. And you might be a little bit peeved at the shop because you've got to take it back and all that sort of stuff. But you genuinely or generally talk like a reasonable human being.

Millie Flemington-Clare (22:50)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson (23:02)

Right? You take that same person and you put them in a place where they become faceless and their communication is digital. Wow. It's like the meanness, sort of barometer gets turned up. Does that mean there's the switch goes all the way around and they say the most extraordinary things, which they would never say face to face. and so I think you do have to, you know, be a bit thick skinned in that.

Millie Flemington-Clare (23:09)

Yeah.

Yes.

Matt Edmundson (23:32)

And we've just come to realize, think, because my, initially I would respond, I would rally against things like that. I'd be like, why, if you can talk to me like that, I don't care. just genuinely don't care. Which is, which is probably not the most helpful response. And then I took it as a challenge to see if I could win them. you mean it's like, well, cause if I win them over, then actually they probably become quite loyal customers.

Millie Flemington-Clare (23:40)

Yes. Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Edmundson (23:58)

Do you

what mean? Is sort of what we found. so then that became the challenge. And the way that we did it was to say, listen, we're going to call you and resolve this over the phone. And that just changed everything. Because people are much more sensible on the phone than they are on email. I don't know what it is. Put people on Twitter or on email and they become lunatics. It just draws it out of us, I guess.

Millie Flemington-Clare (24:16)

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, it's yeah, it's been learning and even just like even people using my website and not or even using my products and not knowing how to do them. What are in my head is like the most simple thing in the entire world. and just having to talk people, like talk people through things like that. I'd never even had even imagined anyone would need help with.

Matt Edmundson (24:47)

Yeah, yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (24:49)

So yeah, it's, but it's been good and we have, you know, done that, able to win people over and actually, even things of like, even things like realizing, not to offer a refund as the first, like a replacement and a refund. Just say, we're going to send you a replacement ASAP and no one asked for a refund. it only happened once with one, one lady that I did what you exactly, you said, I said, you know what? Like if you can't wait, I I explained to her three times that.

Matt Edmundson (25:03)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (25:18)

I was one person packing like 200 orders and if she couldn't wait for it, I said like, do you mind bearing with me? And she just came back meaner and meaner every time and said, don't, you you know, talking about my shipping stuff. said, you know what? I said, if you can't wait, I'll give you a refund. I was like, it's 20 quid. She can have it back. I don't want you as a customer.

Matt Edmundson (25:37)

It's not worth a headache. Yeah.

Yeah. I definitely don't need this in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. It's fascinating, isn't it? Because it sounds like you've gone through a lot then the last couple, a big learning curve with your econ business. And it will just keep growing. I mean, you're in you're in the beauty industry, perhaps one of the most competitive.

Millie Flemington-Clare (25:55)

Yeah.

next.

Matt Edmundson (26:03)

I'm, you know, I'm speaking from experience, one of the most competitive sort of places to try and operate a business in. You've got quite a unique niche. You obviously you have a cause and this is, something which is quite interesting in many ways, you know, businesses that are built around a noble cause. and what that means, which is fine if you're somebody like Patagonia or Tom shoes or somebody that actually proves

that they're doing the cause that they set out to do rather than just kind of, you know, greenwashing or cause washing or whatever the phraseology is. But obviously for you that this is a mission. It's not just, I mean, it's nice to make money out of it, but you're doing this because of a deep personal mission or sense of mission, I would have thought. Is that right?

Millie Flemington-Clare (26:38)

Yes.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, for sure. And I have like, much why like bigger ambitions than that have kind of appeared as a result of this journey that I've been on so far with human beauty, in terms of like, making a bigger change by in the beauty industry, but also in any product based businesses in terms of accessibility, because, you know, ultimately, we've got my makeup products, and my community, but what

what is the core of what I do is my story, which is so many other people's story and also my kind of more wider campaigning for accessibility. So yeah, it's kind of a piece of hopefully a bigger puzzle.

Matt Edmundson (27:41)

Yeah, and I want to dig into this a little bit if I can with you, Millie. But before I do, let me just do the quick ad break, as we like to say. If you're enjoying this conversation, if you run your own e-commerce business like Millie and you would like to join us, why not come and join in one of our e-commerce cohorts? We have one in the UK, we have one in Australia and New Zealand, and we have a new one actually starting in the US as well, probably summertime 2025.

And so yeah, if you're an e-commerce entrepreneur and you want to come join in basically, it's a monthly zoom call We just get together with the Ecom entrepreneurs to trade stories ideas and that's about that's not about it There's a bit more to it than that But you get the point you get to hang out with other Ecom entrepreneurs and learn from each other and it's totally free It's pretty awesome. Pretty rad pretty cool pretty rad. I can't believe I've just said that a man of my age I've been hanging out with my kids too much. Anyway, if you want to know more about e-commerce cohort, just go to the website e-commerce podcast

And who knows, I might see you on one of those calls. So Millie, me, let's jump into this mission, the accessibility around products, because being totally candid, it's not something that has affected me. And so I, I have to work hard to think about accessibility, if that makes sense. And I remember years ago when, you know, the web started becoming a thing.

and everybody was just like in the code, you have to put like alt tags on images. So if someone who's partially blind or blind is using your website, they understand what the image is. And you go, this makes all the sense in the world. Why did this should be a standard, right? Even things like contrast, you know, if the colors aren't too distinguished, it can affect people visually. I mean, I'm just an old man now, so I have to wear readers. So, you know, I don't, I'm not a big fan of tiny fonts.

But that's about the limit in some respects. Where I don't see it in experience, you do on a fairly regular basis. you've done things which I think are quite remarkable. Like, I mean, I was joking before we hit the record button, I think, about mascara and how I'm not brilliant, actually, I'm not a knowledge base on it. But you've done something quite unusual with the mascara, which is, guess, why they talked about it for an hour on Dragon's Den.

Millie Flemington-Clare (30:05)

Yeah, yeah, I think it was a mixture between, in terms of them talking on Dragon's Den, I think it was a mixture between what it was. I do, it is like the product that a lot of people talk about, because it has the big, you know, the most amount of unique selling points. So we've got our anti-roll packaging, which ultimately is just square packaging. But I talk about

Matt Edmundson (30:27)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (30:30)

like incremental innovation has just small tweaks to existing products that are thoughtful design considerations that then make it better for everyone. Because until you start thinking about it, you don't realize how many products in a makeup bag are round, cylindrical. You if you're a commu-, you go-, you do your makeup on the commute on the train and then you have to do that awkward roll under the-, under the chair and have to get in between people and be like, sorry, can I get my product?

Matt Edmundson (30:45)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (30:56)

So it's like accessible design ultimately benefits everyone. And if you look around you, are, there are things that have been designed for disabled people, actually to have just made it into the mainstream because it's just good design. I do think they spoke about my mascara a lot as well because Peter Jones isn't going to pick up a pink heart shaped product and be like, I love this. This is, this is your star product. Whereas my mascara is green and

Matt Edmundson (31:00)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (31:27)

arguably masculine. So I and then the rest of the dragons kind of ran with it. Peter said this is your product and they ran with it. Because like our eyeshadow palette has QR codes or now we're going to put Navi lens codes on them, which are basically a QR code, but Navi lens are slightly different designs. So people who are visually impaired or blind, you can scan the QR code.

Matt Edmundson (31:36)

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (31:51)

from a much further distance, from angles, that type of thing. And it leads to audio visual descriptions of the shades and all of our eyeshadows are kind of placed in positions that make sense. Cause again, eyeshadow palettes just are plopped around whatever looks better. So yeah, and it's also talking about accessibility, not just from, you know, design features, but price is often forgotten about. We're seeing more, some brands bring out like techie devices.

Matt Edmundson (32:06)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (32:21)

Um, like there was a tech device to apply lipstick and it's basically a gimbal, uh, camera gimbal with an app that you can put lipsticks in. Um, but it costs, it costs $200. Um, it can only be used with this brand's specific mascara, which is about eight times the price of a normal mascara, which then create not mascara lip lipstick, which then creates forced loyalty. Um, 53 % of disabled people are unemployed. Um,

Matt Edmundson (32:30)

yeah.

Right.

Millie Flemington-Clare (32:50)

And it costs on average £1,200 a month more just to live and exist as a disabled person in the UK. Yeah. And it's a really scary place for my community right now with all the government cuts.

Matt Edmundson (32:56)

Really? Wow.

Yeah,

it is. mean, yeah, if we were political podcasts, we, mean, I would rock and roll on this. I mean, it's ridiculous in many ways, but,

Millie Flemington-Clare (33:10)

So that's important that price is also taken into consideration when we talk about accessible products.

Matt Edmundson (33:18)

So let me ask you a question then Millie if I can. I run Econ businesses and I know many people listening to the show run Econ businesses. mean, beyond the price aspect of it and I don't quite know how to help.

with pricing other than give discounted pricing, but then how do you do that in a way that is equitable and fair? That's gonna take a little bit of thought,

How do, for someone like me that runs e-commerce businesses, that has a, I think that's probably fair to say we all have a real heart to do the right thing. Some people don't, and I get, know, and if that's you, please don't listen to the show. You should probably turn it off now. But do know what mean? We have a real heart in some respects to do the right thing. But we don't know what we don't know, if that makes sense. And so where's a good place?

Millie Flemington-Clare (34:18)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson (34:22)

for us to start, what are some of the things that we should think about maybe is a better question when it comes to around accessibility.

Millie Flemington-Clare (34:27)

well, I would say to follow, especially for like e-commerce websites, social media accessibility, there's someone on LinkedIn called Jamie shields. he calls himself the blind rhino. he does a lot of resources and posts about, accessibility, whether that be, social media captions, alt text websites, contrasts,

Matt Edmundson (34:38)

Okay.

Okay.

Millie Flemington-Clare (34:56)

And his information is usually an infographics and it's so easily digestible and it's entertaining and yeah, it's not. It's easy to kind of take in as someone who has no experience in accessibility. I've learned a lot from him and because he talks about accessibility and he's blind and it's kind of, again, things that you wouldn't even think about.

Matt Edmundson (35:11)

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (35:24)

like having sentence casing on your hashtags, for example. so having, if it was, don't know, ECO e-commerce podcast, it'd be having, capital letters on each, word. And that's because of the way screen readers read it and not use overusing emojis. Like some people use emojis as like bullet points and things like that.

Matt Edmundson (35:42)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Millie Flemington-Clare (35:52)

So there's little things that again, like I wouldn't have ever thought about, but it's a way that you can digest it really easily. And I think ultimately that people in my community are just happy that people want to learn. And we know that you're going to make mistakes. Like I've made mistakes, especially when I, with my website, the first round time round, when I use an accessibility widget, it blew up overnight on LinkedIn.

Matt Edmundson (36:01)

Mm.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (36:21)

and it was kind of reached the experts who I, I didn't even know were out there. I thought I was doing a great thing and it was like, yeah, 80,000 impressions, hundreds of comments. and it's a very different world, England versus us in terms of web accessibility. but it's all about humility and learning and, know, putting the hands up and saying, you know, I, I didn't know, or I made a mistake. and it's what you do from that.

Matt Edmundson (36:33)

well.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's fair comment. And I think that's very wise lessons for all of us in that really. because like you say, I think just trying to improve, just trying to be better and, actually just real people who struggle in real different ways. And actually it doesn't take a lot from our point of view to, make it a whole lot easier for a whole bunch of people, you know, with what we do. And I think that's fair play.

Millie Flemington-Clare (37:12)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson (37:16)

What's future hold Millie? What's the next few years of human beauty look like? Where are you hoping it all goes to?

Millie Flemington-Clare (37:24)

Yeah, that's the question that is going around in my head a lot at the moment. Because ultimately I need to start making enough that I can pay myself is number one. As I said in the show, I want to be the Fenty Beauty for accessible beauty. I do believe that the beauty industry is going to catch on like the adaptive fashion.

world, it boomed and is a multi-million pound, maybe billion pound industry now. And I want to be the one leading the kind of way for that. And yeah, being known for accessible beauty. I want to start my other business, which I talk about making much wider change in terms of some kind of, you know, certification. We're basically going to do a certification for products.

Matt Edmundson (37:59)

Mm.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (38:19)

Um,

cause that right now there's no legislation that means businesses have to be accessible when it comes to products. There's legislation for venues kind of, um, and ultimately right now going to a business say, it's, know, it's the right thing to do. Um, it's, I want to make a bigger change in terms of, uh, consulting with businesses and helping businesses develop products that are accessible from the start.

because we're such a huge minority, the world's largest minority. And ultimately the one that anyone can become a part of. And you say about your gasses and stuff that when I talk about disability is such a huge, huge umbrella term, like age-related macular degeneration would come under that in terms of accessibility. So accessibility really affects everyone. So that is the plan. I would, I need to get an investor basically as well.

Matt Edmundson (38:49)

Yeah.

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (39:19)

and hopefully one that shares my values in terms of making a change and someone in the beauty industry, hopefully, because it's such a closed-door industry still, everyone is hush-hush and who wants to share anything really. So that would be...

Matt Edmundson (39:24)

Yeah.

Yeah,

the beauty industry, think in some respects run by major core. I appreciate there are what I'm about to say is not true of everybody because that would be an unfair thing to say. But I think the way that I viewed the beauty industry was I was glad to get out of it. When we when we did, because it is it is horrific in some respects on so many levels. I remember.

Millie Flemington-Clare (39:55)

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson (40:05)

reading the stat that my daughter who instantly has just turned 18, but she wasn't 18 at the time. Um, she would see around 3000 images a day through, uh, TV through social media, through magazines, through posters. And out of those 3000 images, she would see every single one of them would have been photoshopped in some way. So it's this industry which presents.

an unreality, which is so far distorted from what is actually going on. think it's criminal in many ways. and it was like you, I felt the need to sort of challenge that, when I was in the beauty industry and it's not easy. I think good on you for doing it because I think it's a competitive industry. think it definitely needs challenging. I think there is so much wrong with it and there are some

corporations who I think should be taken to task. But that's just me. I'll get off my soapbox now, Millie. But I think good on you for doing it. And well done. And keep going, because I think it will make a difference to people. And if you can make a living out of it, great. I think that would be great.

Millie Flemington-Clare (41:16)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's

the ultimate thing. Like I think if I didn't get messages every day from people telling me how important what I'm doing is and how game changing it is and thank you and you know that was ultimately the best thing that came from Dragon's Den so far is the messages I receive from people telling me how much the representation and me speaking up means to hundreds of people. If it wasn't for that

Matt Edmundson (41:32)

Mm.

Millie Flemington-Clare (41:46)

you cause you could say, you know, a lot of people see it, it's just makeup, but it's so much more than that. If it wasn't for all that love, I probably, I have, I have thought about giving up and do it going into my policy style thing. Cause the beauty industry is so, yeah, so toxic and who you, who you know, not what you know. And it is going to have so many barriers to entry, but I'm not giving up yet.

Matt Edmundson (41:58)

Yeah.

No, don't, definitely keep going. keep telling us your story, because I think it's super inspiring. Millie, if people want to reach you, if they want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Millie Flemington-Clare (42:25)

Yeah on LinkedIn it's Millie Flemington-Clair or through my Instagram it's humanbeautyldn and we have a contact to us form on my website at www.humanbeauty.co.uk

Matt Edmundson (42:40)

Fantastic. We will of course link to all of those in the show notes. And if you found our conversation helpful today, then make sure you're subscribed to the newsletter, because all of the notes, links and stuff will come in the newsletter, as well as a bit more deep dive into this sort of stuff. We always try and throw a lot more extra value into the newsletter. So if you want to know all of those little bits, make sure you're subscribed to that. But Millie, thank you. One thing I should probably ask you actually before we close out the show.

I like to ask guests, I think I mentioned this to you, I like to ask guests for a question, which I then will go and weigh and answer on social media, just slowing down my words to make sure I phrase that right. What's your question for me?

Millie Flemington-Clare (43:22)

If you had one piece of advice for someone kind of in my position starting out in a competitive industry, what would your advice be in terms of like growing and keeping going?

Matt Edmundson (43:41)

Fantastic. Well, I will answer that question. If you want to know how I'm going to answer it, come follow me on LinkedIn, Matt Edmondson, and I will post the answer there. But Millie, it's been an absolute joy and a real treat chatting to you. And thank you so much. And I wish you every best, every best. I wish you the best with every endeavor going forward. It's lovely to see actually people wanting to use business to make a difference rather than just people wanting to use business to make a shed load of money.

Millie Flemington-Clare (43:59)

Thank you so much.

Matt Edmundson (44:11)

Not that I haven't, I don't have necessarily an issue with that, but I think actually thinking about the human cost and the human benefit on the way is super important. So thank you for reminding us of that.

Millie Flemington-Clare (44:20)

Thank you for having me.

Matt Edmundson (44:22)

Well, there you go. That's it from me. That's it from Millie. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye for now.