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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with me, your host. Matt Edmundson. Now, this is a show all about helping you deliver e-commerce. Wow. And today is a founder's episode. This is where I get to talk to someone who is actually running their own e-commerce business. And I'm really excited to have my conversation with Amy today.

We had a great prequel, uh, and just, yeah, really excited. Uh, let me tell you a little bit about myself. If you don't know, I've been in eCommerce since 2002. Today I partner with eCommerce brands. All over the world to help them grow, scale and exit. And if you'd like to know more about how that works, then head over to the website, eCommerce Podcast dot net. It's all on there. Where incidentally, you can also sign up of course, too, the wonderful newsletter that we have where everything comes to your inbox. The, the site kind of, I wanna say the show notes, it's not the show notes 'cause we really expand on them, uh, and deliver some great value in there. So, uh, if you've not signed up to the email. You should really get on that, the newsletter. [00:01:00] So go check that out eCommerce Podcast dot net. Enough of all that, now you know that if you're a regulatory show and if you're not, by the way, if you're new, a really warm welcome to you, where am I? Manners. It's great that you are here. Uh, let's talk about today's guest.

Amy, uh, Amy, all the way from Austin, Texas, uh, uh, with Ms. Pacman behind her. If

Amy Leinbach: That's right. Say hi. She's, she's listening in today. She might wanna get into the e-commerce game. So she is, you know,

Matt Edmundson: She's there. She's

there, which is great.

Amy Leinbach: Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: I mistakenly said that. That's awesome. You have Pacman behind you, but it's not Pacman, it's Ms. Pacman, which is very, very important.

Um, I just love the fact you've got an arcade game behind you. I just think that I, I'm just like, I am totally getting one into my, I'm in the, in what I call my man cave now, and I should

Amy Leinbach: Oh, you need one. You need one. It's old school connection. It's, it's just so good. It's a different feeling. Go get one.

Matt Edmundson: It is a very different, you know what, can I just tell a quick, I appreciate [00:02:00] this is not the conversation of the podcast, but a quick short story.

Uh, my daughter who has just turned 18, like last week. Um, a, a couple years ago we went on a trip. Her and I, we went over to the States, um, and she wanted to do the, the, Pacific Coast Highway.

You know, we, we rented a car and we drove the, the Pacific Coast Highway along the coast of California, and we drove up from south of LA up to San Francisco and it was beautiful. And when we got,

Amy Leinbach: Alma mater,

uh, Pepperdine. You passed my alma mater. That beautiful pass you went through,

Matt Edmundson: There we go. There we go. Uh, it was, it was beautiful. And, and, and when we gotta San Francisco, there was this sort of place down on the, on what I'd call the docks down the, I think you call 'em the pier D uh, down at the pier there was this sort of place where there was old arcade machines. You went in and it was just, it was this massive place just for, and you walked in and there was like pinball machines from the 1950s and I'm like, [00:03:00] Zoe, we have got to spend a little bit of time here. And lo and behold, in that place, they found the one game that I was good at when I was a youngster,

uh, it

was the Star Wars, uh, game, the Atari Star Wars

Amy Leinbach: Oh, a chart. Yes.

Matt Edmundson: And I abs I, when I was a kid, I absolutely did. So I got very excited and it's the one computer game or arcade game that I can actually beat my kids at.

Amy Leinbach: I'm, I'm actually, I can't, I can't bowl, but Capcom bowling. Was my, the one with the bowling ball in the middle and you just do it. I'd do it until I'd like pull my, my muscles between. Did Zoe think, did she, did she kind get it? I mean, it's a

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I mean obviously the, the graphics were very, very different to what she's used to. Um, but I think she was just loving the fact that dad was just very excited and actually completed the game on his first

go. Still still got the muscle memory,

like 50 years.[00:04:00]

Amy Leinbach: got it.

Matt Edmundson: What a thing to still have. What a thing to us anyway. Back to e-commerce, uh, the real reason people have tuned in other than to reminisce about arcade machines. Amy, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little about, uh, a little bit about Big B, little B.

Amy Leinbach: Um, I have a daughter as well. Her name is Marlo and Big B, little B. I'm the big B. She's the little B, that's her brand name. Um, she's 10, she not 18. Uh. But together we invent, develop, manufacture, and retail. Um, our own creations, several of them invented by me, one of them invented by her, and they're all eco-friendly products, but they make your, your daily routines easier.

Um, for example, silicone food storage containers that, you know, historically, silicone food storage can be a little. Um, difficult to clean, not super user friendly. Um, and we designed an approach that makes it [00:05:00] easier for you than even like a regular bag. Um, and she invented, uh, the silicone product that keeps your marker caps contained, grips your marker caps, so you just remove a marker and not, uh, remove the cap so they can't get lost.

So everything is eco-friendly, eco-conscious, but mostly to do with making your life easier. On a daily basis. That's what we do. We've been doing

Matt Edmundson: That's amazing.

Amy Leinbach: I think we're going on 10 years now.

Matt Edmundson: Well, she's 10. Sure.

Amy Leinbach: almo? Yeah. Well, so nine. So nine. 'cause the first product I brought to market was for her when she was, um, a baby.

We don't sell it anymore, but it was made for her. And that was the beginning. So a what?

Matt Edmundson: That's incredible. I love this idea of doing something. With your daughter. I mean, that's, that's quite an extraordinary thing. Um, I, I, when our kids were growing up, my daughter's my youngest child, we got three, my oldest [00:06:00] is, I don't know, 23, 24. You stop counting after a while, Amy, I'm not gonna lie.

Amy Leinbach: Adult.

Matt Edmundson: he's an adult.

Um, but when they were grown up, we never gave them pocket money or an allowance,

uh, as you'd call it on your side of the pond. But I did say to them, if they had a business idea, I would invest in it. Um, and so my son, when he was 10, set up a chicken business. He wanted to buy chickens and he would go and sell the eggs and all that sort of stuff.

And so,

uh,

Amy Leinbach: did it.

Matt Edmundson: I, I, I mean, I invested in it, so I paid for it to sort of

start, but yeah, he went and started this chicken business, which was amazing.

And so I,

Amy Leinbach: in the chicken business.

Matt Edmundson: well, it's, it's a good business to

be

Amy Leinbach: Francisco, he's in the chicken business. He sells his eggs. He has a huge margin, And he's just a really cute kid with a great personality and just, he's a phenomenal salesman. And his eggs are, you know, I can't call him over price because, you know, he's, they're worth that, you know, the way he cares for them.

So

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah.

Amy Leinbach: chicken business.

Matt Edmundson: It's

Amy Leinbach: [00:07:00] Start him. young. Yes.

Matt Edmundson: stardom young, which is what you're doing with your daughter and I

I'm, how does she respond to the idea of being involved in e-commerce?

Amy Leinbach: She's in, she's in love with it. So I saw in her from an extremely young age what I think my parents saw in me. Like she's, she's very, she's all of her toys that she'd get, never in her mind were the toys. They were on the box. Like to her good, her an alphabet, you know, set. She's making soup. Do you know what I mean?

Like everything she was using, everything she could get her hands on, she did something else with it always. And she really loved being in her playroom with her stuff. And you could always see everything going on behind the, the eyes, even just as a baby. And I really love to encourage that in children. I actually used to be, um, a special education teacher and I [00:08:00] just really love to encourage the creativity and the problem solving and finding other ways into problems.

So I was very much, I fed all of that every. You know, a lot of times, you know, kids love, um, things that would typically be trash pieces of styrofoam that came in boxes. She's always had it all. I've, I've never said no. I joke about it. I laugh like, please enough, like right now, huge constructions at a cardboard and I've never said no to that because it, I, I feel like you get that part of the brain so open

once so to keep it open and she.

She's always making stuff. And so when it came, she was, she was six and a half and she had the idea for the marker, Parker. It doesn't, the product on the market doesn't resemble it at all. You know, you see the process, it's really fun. But, uh, when she created that prototype, she'd solve the problem for losing her marker caps.

And I was like, let's, do you wanna, do you wanna make a product together or see if it can turn into a product? Really, [00:09:00] and she wanted to and together, um, we did it. And she knows so much about product development and e-commerce now, because once you're done with the product development process, it's like, well, you are not done now.

Now is when the real work begins. You know, you gotta. So she's, she's fascinated by it. And just last night, um, she makes toys now just for herself. She's a toy maker, but just last night we were working on, um, we 3D printed a prototype for, uh, uh, a new size of the s shell, one of the silicone food storage containers.

And she looked at the, um, the top of it, and she's just like, the, the pattern looks too. Um. Cramped in one spot. And she is like, and I don't like that. It doesn't have like the slight slope on the top silicone panel. And I'm listening and I'm like, okay, I agree with the scattering of the, you know, how, how it's cramped in one spot [00:10:00] and the design, but why?

Why with the slope? Why do we need it? We have the fit. And she's like, well, the other ones, I just don't think it fits. Like with the line of the other products, they all have a slight slope. So she's like, I don't think it has to be, 'cause this one was completely flat. She's like, I don't think it has to be completely flat, but I do think it needs to have that same feel as the others.

And I was like, Ooh,

ooh,

Matt Edmundson: is a, this is a 10-year-old young girl

saying this.

Amy Leinbach: So, and she's right. She's so right on that. But the way she approached it, she wasn't just, at first she was like, oh, it's so cool. And then immediately see her start to study it. It's, it's been phenomenal. It's so rewarding. It's so rewarding to watch her, um, develop these skills and, and mostly have the confidence to say it, you know, have the confidence to show it, because I respect her as an inventor and like, just like every other [00:11:00] inventor, you know, and product developer grown up, it's the same.

Matt Edmundson: There's a

Amy Leinbach: amazing.

Matt Edmundson: no, no doubt. I mean, there's a company here in the uk I'll give 'em a little shout out called Seven Yays Who Make Birthday Week Advent Calendars. They're quite, it's quite an extraordinary idea. I think it's a really great idea, which they've, I. They've developed and, and, and, and done well with all came because their daughter one day came back from school and said, dad, I've got an idea. And dad was like, I like that idea. Let's see if there's any mileage in it. And, and they've got a full fledged econ business as a result of, you know,

Amy Leinbach: I have to look it up. Do you say like, yay. Like yay.

Matt Edmundson: The number Seven

YAYS.

Amy Leinbach: Yeah. Seven Yays. Oh my gosh. The play on days. The play. I love it all. Yay. Like, oh, I love it all.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's, it's really clever what they've done. And, um, I, I, I, I really like those guys. A big shout out to Andrew and Charlotte if they're listening, who head up seven years.

Um, but again, this idea of getting kids [00:12:00] involved in the business and showing them from an early age, I. I think is quite a remarkable thing, and I, and why not?

I mean, you, you're,

it, it is fascinating that you sit and say, oh, we just 3D printed a some, because you can do that now.

It's not

Amy Leinbach: can do it.

Matt Edmundson: you can prototype super easy. I just, I'm just gonna 3D print that and see what it comes out. I don't like the word That's 3D. Print another one and

see what that comes out like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the technology that we have access to now. In some respects it's never been easier, but fundamentally the principle still stays the same. When I was a kid, my dad encouraged me to run a tuck shop at school, you know, where

you would sell, um, sweets and candy to the kids. And so I did. Um, I mean, we didn't have 3D printer back then, but I could go and buy sweetss from one shop cheaply and sell them slightly more expensive to the, and you learn that trade and. You learn the value of money. But the thing that I love about what you've done, you've tapped into the creativity actually and imagination of a 10-year-old girl.

'cause I think that's easily lost and that's, it's

quite a remarkable thing.

Amy Leinbach: [00:13:00] I, I think also one of the important things is also showing her the bad parts of, or the, the, the very challenging parts or when something. Goes wrong. I mean, certainly in the product development process, there are a whole different approaches. Like I taught her that we, we stay married to the problem that we're solving.

We don't stay married to the approach that we have, which is why it looks different than her first prototype. But also I think it's important to continue that development of problem solving, to keep that part open, to always be solving problems because. I don't wanna cause call it problems really, but eCommerce is like, every day you're handed a, a challenge.

We're talking today on a day that we learned about new tariffs yesterday afternoon. And it will have an impact and it will, we will have to make a shift and I don't keep those things from her.

I don't keep that from her either. I said, these are the things and, and maybe these are some of the levers we can pull.

Um, but even when it's not something she's really learned about, I [00:14:00] always bring her into that conversation because one day she will surprise me like she did with her, you know, design suggestions in a way that I didn't think about. One day she will enter in that conversation and say something exactly like that design pointing out.

Like, what about this lever? What about, you know, um, so. We talk about the challenges just as much as we talk about the wins, as

Matt Edmundson: Which, which, which is great 'cause they learn resilience. Right. And they

learn that the, the world is not also in shining rainbows.

And, and it's not all Carly Simon or whoever it is that's on the Netflix or the kids, or, I'm just talking out of

Amy Leinbach: Carly Simon.

Matt Edmundson: I. I, I, I am Carly. That's the one. Carly Simon

Amy Leinbach: I'm Carly. Carly Simon. It sounds like, I don't think my daughter's really into Carly Simon, but I should introduce her to.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you are so vain, I think is the, uh,

Amy Leinbach: So, yes. Oh

Matt Edmundson: you know what, Amy, the sad thing is there's [00:15:00] people listening to the podcast now going, who's Carley

Amy Leinbach: Who's car? Well, they look her up and they'll learn something amazing. So there's a learning from this,

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I think, yeah, That's true. That's true. So this is great. So I, um, why, why did you get into e-commerce? What kickstarted that journey for you? I mean, it was, it just the fact you are, you needed something for your daughter and you thought, well, I'll make it and sell it online.

Or was there something more to it?

Amy Leinbach: Um. Yeah, I made it for her because the, it was a specialized baby towel where you oftentimes, you dry a baby on a counter, you know, you're, you're dealing with it. And I would pile up towels. So I made a cushioned baby bath towel with wings. That just made the process a lot easier. I don't sell it anymore, uh, because the Manu manufacturing cost was so high.

I didn't know about over-engineering at the time. I'm not trained in any of this. I don't have any, I mean, I have a, a degree in education. And uh, and so I didn't know, so we don't sell it anymore, but when I made it, it was like, [00:16:00] well, this is probably a good product. I should give it a shot. Maybe I'll test it out with some people in the neighborhood, put it on a Facebook group, tried it out, you know, all that.

And then made a bunch and put it on Amazon. And I was like, well, that's a pretty good way to test a product. Put it on Amazon, see if people will part with their money for it. And they did. And it, it was hard. The problem with that product too, was also as an inventor, you're always having to explain to people what it is.

It's not like, here's a mouse, here's why my mouse is better. It's like, here's my invention. Let me explain to you the problem. Let me tell you how we are approach to it. Let me tell you how it's gonna, you know, so it was kind of a, it was a complicated product like that, but I was just like, let's try. I've never had like a fear of, um, failing in that way.

I'm just like, so maybe people won't like it and that's fine.

But that's how it all began.

Matt Edmundson: [00:17:00] Fascinating.

Amy Leinbach: the next product was also made for Marlo, my daughter. So

Matt Edmundson: and,

and thus, the journey began.

Amy Leinbach: yep. And it was like something like every year and a half or so, every two years we put out a new product and a couple, I'm very, I'm also very quick to get rid of products.

If it's not working for the catalog, meaning like I, you're gone, like, there was a product called Beekeepers, which build your own divided plate, but it was me trying to solve the food storage problem going back, you know, before the s shell line, the silicone line. And I was just like, this just isn't the way.

It's not taking, I think it's not taking for a reason. This isn't the way. So even though I'd invested in the, the tooling and all that, I was like, this isn't the way, this isn't the one. Keep going, keep trying. And I sat with the problem for years, I'd say saw Shell was the longest development timeline that we've had for any of the products because the getting to the solution, getting to the solution, and [00:18:00] then making it excellent.

So. The, the solution to the problem and then the technical elements of it. I'm still, I'm still perfecting it. Every version, it's like imperceptible to the eye, but it's different. It's different every time. The lock is a fraction of a millimeter, you know, longer.

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Leinbach: so, yeah, and I just move on. It's, it's the resilience and it's, I'm fine with changing my mind and I feel like I do that constantly.

Matt Edmundson: It feels like, whilst in one sense there's a personal aspect to this story because your daughter's involved, um, I. Normally when people are personally attached to something, when there's that emotional buy-in, it's very hard to let things go.

But it sounds like you, you sort of found the best of both worlds.

Amy Leinbach: Yeah. I, I, and I think the way, one of the ways to get around that is to go, it never stops being, it never stops being part of the journey. You're, you're letting it go in the way of your, you're not [00:19:00] selling them anymore, you're not manufacturing them anymore, but it doesn't stop that it got you to the next place, right?

So those beekeepers that aren't sold anymore, they were a necessary stepping stone to the saw shell line, which is thankfully extremely successful. Um. But if I hadn't really identified, that's not the way and that's not what's resonating with people and here's what's wrong with it, I don't think I would've come to this off shelf.

So, so the personal attachment, just like so many things that we have, you know, let that memory and that importance in the journey be the thing you hold onto, not keep. Banging your head against a wall. Why isn't it selling? Why isn't it this, I, I know it can be this and it's not. You know what I mean? Like, let it be where it belongs in the past and that helps me 'cause it didn't go away.

Matt Edmundson: Well, it's a, it's, I [00:20:00] think it's a beautiful way of thinking about it, you know, and, and reframing it. It's like, well, this is, this is a stepping stone on the journey. This

is something that we've got to do, but it, it is part of the journey. At some point, we leave that part, and that's, that's actually quite a, a, a good way of reframing it, I think, because I do see a lot of people get emotionally attached to things and they just can't let it go.

Amy Leinbach: They can't let it go. I talk to a lot of my friends deal with that. Like we, I have a lot of friends who are in similar businesses, you know, um, in the same kind of place in the journey. I see them struggle with it. Um, but also, I mean, obviously you probably tell my daughter is my why, and so when I make choices and like I always wanna model the things.

That I want her to, you know, I want her to see, you know, and hopefully she can adopt and, and just acceptance of certain things. You know, being really looking at it, looking at the truth of the situation and going, okay, well I've taken this to the end of the, you know, I've taken this to the end of the line with [00:21:00] this, let's.

Shift. Let's move on. Let's put it where it belongs. You know? And, and doing it in a healthy way is really important for me. And we've taken a lot of hits in this business. We've had a lot of low points. And I feel like what carried me and sometimes is no, I wanna model resilience. The data's telling me things are working.

It doesn't feel like it. And it feels like the luck isn't coming through, but the data's telling me it's working, so I, I can't stop. 'cause that's not.

That, that's not the thing I wanna model. It's not the thing that will feel good for me. Um, and so those are the kind of things that keep me going. So it's, it's really so much about resilience and as much as, you know, the words overused, pivoting in, in a million different ways.

Matt Edmundson: Well, yeah, it is. I think that's resilience is not necessarily trying to flog a dead horse to, to, you know, for a, a good old English

expression resilience, like you say, is learning what's working now and figuring out what's gonna work tomorrow and, and being able to [00:22:00] adapt from one to

the other with any, without any loss of enthusiasm or momentum.

To quote Churchill, it's not quite Churchill's quote, but

Amy Leinbach: Stopping is not quitting. Do you know what I mean? Stopping something doesn't mean you're quitting something.

Matt Edmundson: It just means it's, it's just changed. It's just moved.

And I think this is quite an important, I suppose it's, if I look back over my e-comm career, it's one of those things where actually I've, I've been okay a bit like yourself, Amy, to go, actually, that's not working. I need to stop that now. You know? Um, and just, and just bring that background to where it, where it needs to be.

Um, what's been your biggest learning, do you think, in e-commerce?

Amy Leinbach: Feel the feelings, absorb the information, whatever. It's right. Like whatever it is, just, you know, something happened, absorb it, you know, I hate to say like the, the age old, like learn from it, you know? But take what you can feel the emotions. Sometimes the hit is hard, you know, like [00:23:00] obvious, you know, with the tariff thing, not to harp on it, but like with the tariff thing.

Okay, listen, feel what you're gonna feel. If you wanna feel something, feel it. And then as quickly as you can. Deal with it, you know, deal with it. Go, okay, now you know, now we have this information. And what was the original question? Sorry? You

Matt Edmundson: What's been your biggest learning in

Amy Leinbach: learning. Yeah, so, okay, so I'm still, still on the train.

Sometimes it goes. Um, but I feel like getting there faster, that's been the learning. And I think I, I do think that doesn't necessarily come from discipline. I think it comes through practice.

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Leinbach: Like knowing it's not the end of the world. No. And I have not seen an A situation that's come like from the outside.

That really is like, that's the thing. It's just like, these are factors knowing, okay, this one's gonna hurt, this one's gonna hurt, deal with it, move on. And it, I think it just takes practice. So if you're at the beginning of the [00:24:00] journey. Just remembering, okay, this is gonna be tougher to get from, you know, here to here, uh, right now.

But I'll almost learn it's just a muscle to be developed. And just know if you're in the beginning of the journey, just know you'll, you'll get there. So try to get there quicker. And, uh, if you've been along the journey for a while and you're still struggling with it, just remember you dealt with it.

You've done this a million times before. If you are years into your journey, you have dealt with. Problems, like whatever you're struggling with today, you've dealt with something similar before.

Get there faster.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Very good. Very good. Hey, listen, if you're listening to the show, wherever you are in the world, and you would like to hang with fellow e-com founders, uh, like Amy, then why not think about joining the e-commerce Cohort? The e-commerce Cohort are mastermind groups that meet around the world. Uh, there's one in Australian, New Zealand.

There's one in the uk and there is one starting fairly soon in. The us they are [00:25:00] online groups, so you don't have to travel and they're free to join. You just get to meet e-commerce founders and get to chat about what's going on in eCommmerce network with fellow eCommerce, shoot the breeze and figure out how to run your e-commerce business better.

If you wanna know more about e-commerce Cohort, checkout the eCommerce Podcast website. There's a whole bunch of information on there. I'm in there. So come say, how's it? It'd be great to meet you, uh, in the eCommerce cohorts. More information at eCommerce Podcast net. Amy, listen. Um. eCommerce is this big giant of stuff that you've got to think about.

Right?

Um, I and the, the less people, well, in some respects I've got quite a lot of people in my eCom business. I still have to think about all the stuff. Um, I just don't have to think about the detail necessarily. Um, what's been, I suppose, from an e-commerce point of view, the hardest thing for you to wrap your head around that you is kind of taking you a bit of. It's time to learn, but it's actually had quite a big [00:26:00] impact on your business, whether, I don't know, email marketing, Facebook ads, or whatever. I'm just kind of curious.

Amy Leinbach: It's a tough one because there's so, there's so much, um,

there, there really is there, there, it just depends on the, um, on the day. Um, but I feel like, okay, some of the big ones, let's just talk about one of them. Um, one of them is data for me is very, very, very hard and I had to find a way. To make it work for me, so my spreadsheets might look so childish to somebody, but they work for me.

I had to learn how to work with the data. There's no getting around that, you know, and data, not just like, I'm not talking about like sales data, performance data of organic posts. Right. Um, shifting to looking at some parts of the data more than others, like this week alone, I'm like, no, I gotta focus on the meta ads.

I gotta focus on my cost to acquire the customer [00:27:00] right now, because I gotta work on every penny, every bit. Now, especially with the news, like, I gotta work on it. The RO ads is so nice to look at, right? I'm like, oh, okay. I am over this amount. No, I really have to look at the cost right now. Without the data, I can't do that.

You know, and okay, so what are the social posts that are taking off? Okay, looks like microwave. Microwave, like we talked about, microwaving, microwaving, microwave. We tried to talk about lost lids that didn't hit. That's all data too. And I think for me, that's one of the ones I avoided. I avoided it for so long because I didn't feel I had the natural skillset.

And I don't, I don't, it's spreadsheets, it's, it's really very difficult. But for me, I had to, and just finally coming to terms with, there's nobody coming in to save me

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Leinbach: Nobody's coming in from the outside because I have to be the one to see it all, no matter how many people are helping. Like, but I have somebody on meta [00:28:00] ads, you know, and I.

But I have to understand it. In order to manage it, I have to understand it. And so I'm not gonna use the term dumb it down 'cause it's not. It's just a different way in. So I had to find a different way in on the data. And uh, the other one is social media because, what's the word? It's not trends, but the way you work with, let's say years ago, it was influencers.

Now, like my folks gonna be on more of the affiliate program and it is different, you know? Um, so looking right now, um, how to manage a program like that. Um, but yeah, those are probably the big ones. Like, 'cause marketing in general, and right now, you know, obviously I'm talking about marketing, advertising, stuff like that.

Um, but they're a constant process. They're a constant process. And, um. But yeah, I, I could literally sit here for like three hours and answer this [00:29:00] question. Unfortunately,

Matt Edmundson: Well, it's a really interesting question from my point of view, because when people enter commerce. There's you, you get into it and you kind of go, there is so much that I don't, that I didn't know that, I don't know if that makes sense. There's a, there's a whole

Amy Leinbach: it's a whole world. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: and knowing what to work on for my business, I think is half the problem.

So you, I think there's a temptation when you're starting out in eCommerce to try and do everything. I've gotta run Facebook ads, I've gotta run Google Ads, I've gotta do the social media, I've gotta do product development, I've gotta do branding, I've gotta do optimization. I need to get into SEO, so I've gotta write blogs. Do I need to do a YouTube channel? Where's the podcast? Do you know what I mean? There's just

you, you look at it and you kind of go, oh, and then there's email marketing. I've gotta build my email list and you, and you go, holy cow. There's just so much to do out of, out of your own journey, what's been the

Amy Leinbach: Well, if I may, if I may, I have a question. So when you were about, let's say, I wouldn't say the number of years into the business that I am, but kind of in the phase that I am, where it's like we were [00:30:00] at a certain point and now we're really growing, uh, fortunately, very fast. Um. What, if you remember, what were some of your biggest challenges at that point in the business?

Matt Edmundson: The biggest challenge, I think that we, it took me a while to realize it, right? So it's not like I understood this at the time. It's this thing that I understood looking back and tried to summarize everything that went on at one point in my e-commerce journey, uh, our business nearly went bankrupt. Because of a number of reasons, but the main one being that we were turning over around 6 million pounds at the time. So what's that? About seven or $8 million. So we, we weren't small, but we weren't massive. Um, and the supplier said to us, um, sent me a letter actually saying that we're gonna change our pricing policy to a more you buy the more you pay policy. Um, and because we, we were one of their biggest customers, our prices went up by [00:31:00] 30% overnight and, uh, business halved within, inside of a couple of weeks. And it was, it was really fascinating. You know, I, I call it, um, I call it my 38 million pound, uh, lesson for want of better expression because I think that's how much we lost in sales.

And so you've gotta learn from that, you know? Yeah, there's definitely some lessons to learn there. And what I realized was, um, Amy, that there are seven key areas of e-comm, right? You've got, um, product, you've got branding, you've got your tech stack, you've got marketing, you've got optimization, you've got the customer experience, and then you've got this whole growth aspect.

These sort of seven areas that you look at. I realized that as a company we were good in one area, possibly two. We were average in three of them and we were not great in two of them. So the analogy that I use [00:32:00] is we were a bit like the guy that goes to the gym and just lifts, you know, just as excise to build his biceps.

Nothing else. So he is got massive biceps, but it all looks at proportion to the rest of his body. And if I look back, I think in that phase, and we were growing massively rapidly at the time as well, I would say, because we just focused in on what we thought moved the needle for as there, and then we neglected other areas.

Whereas what I should have done was as things were growing and as we had the resources invest in those areas to make sure that every, the whole business grew at the right pace, if that makes sense.

And so that would be my answer.

Amy Leinbach: Was SEO at the bottom. I would Were were the things that gave you immediate returns, like the things you focused on most and the things that were longer term returns fell or,

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. And you, and we tended to, like everybody, you focus on [00:33:00] things that you can measure, right? So in fact, I'm writing a, a, my, my latest blog poster, which I'm writing at the moment, is about measuring things you can't measure, like how effective you are at storytelling, for

Amy Leinbach: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Whereas you can, you can measure if I run this ad, then I get this return.

Right? It was a, and you focused in because that's what everybody told you to do,

right? You, you, you focus in on those things, which you can measure, and what gets measured gets managed and, you know, we hear these things all the time and, and they're useful things to think about. Um, but I, I think in a world which is obsessed with data in, in many ways, it can be

problematic and you get, um, the analysis paralysis because there's so much data you don't actually know what to do with it.

But yes, we, we would focus in on those things like we were hot on Google ads, we were hot on Facebook. We could measure those and you could crank those

Amy Leinbach: Yep.

Matt Edmundson: Um. What that did was it gave you an instant feedback loop. Um, and so you knew that you were growing today because of what you [00:34:00] did yesterday,

and so all the other stuff which was a bit more like you would say, medium term, bit more long term, bit more stuff that you can't measure, that just went out the window.

I.

Amy Leinbach: Yeah, I bet it ha, it's, I've done it too. I've done it too, and I'm starting to, it's, it's interesting you bring it up now 'cause it's one of the things that I'm like, this is my, like Q2, like, 'cause um, we had talked in the pre-call, like we've changed off, um. Our fulfillment, we're not doing anymore. I'm not managing it all.

It's in a different state. It's fantastic. Which frees up, um, me not being involved in that means I can allocate my time a little bit more, uh, wisely for the place in the business we are. And, and that time is really going to, getting a big picture of where I'm at and what of those things is getting, had been completely ignored and, and starting to get a little bit, you know, up on that.

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's a journey you go through, I think, and you, you figure these things out. Um, [00:35:00] as, as you go through it, I'm curious what's, what's moved the needle the most for you, do you think, as a business? What, what's worked the really well?

Amy Leinbach: So it's so hard to say this, uh, because I think it's so not helpful. Uh.

Matt Edmundson: I'm so

curious right now.

Amy Leinbach: the truth is the softshell line, the food storage line. Okay. It's so funny. Um, uh, you know, you, you look at it, and we had some real luck in the beginning, but when you look at, like, if you're looking at the, the growth, um, you'll see that when the softshell launched, the game changed. And, and, and fortunately that lifts all the products, right?

'cause now you have more people coming to the site. You have more people seeing your social and all of that. But, um. Uh, the release of that product line really changed so much, but I think the, the learning in that is that, so I leaned into it. [00:36:00] Okay. I wanna talk about my daughter's invention all day long.

Okay? That's what I wanna talk about. I wanna post about Martha Parker every day, but if you look. I don't, I talk about the saw shell now, like this is the one that's compelling. This is the one that's getting you to the website. This is what's making the difference. This is what I'm gonna talk about and I'll sprinkle the others in.

Um, but that is what changed the game and then going. Was it the Pareto principle or something about the 80, you know, 80 that, yeah. Um, I'm going, I'm not fighting this anymore. Like I am following that. I am following that now. You are getting all of my attention. You know, you're getting 80%, you're getting all of that.

You, because that is the product, the change the game for the business, and now it's working for the other products are lifted as a

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, so that's your hero product, isn't it? Anyways. I think it's an interesting one that, uh, the listening to you talk about that. And I think it's right that you press into it and you make it work, you know, with your hero [00:37:00] product. And I can think on every website that I'm involved with, there is one product, it, and it follows the 80 20 rule.

And it's your hero product and you have to, you have to have it first in the search. You have to have it first on the homepage. And it, it makes a lot of sense to do that because that's the reason why most people are there and it does lift your other products.

Amy Leinbach: I also couldn't afford to, um, can't, couldn't afford to do meta ads for the other products 'cause the price point is too low of those of the other products. We try to keep everything accessible and, um, oh, there's something in this, I think, so the reason we're able to do meta ads for the food containers.

For the soft shells is because people buy multiples. Okay. So like if you look at everything, I have nothing. I don't think there's anything on our website that's, no, it's 1799 and under for a single thing, and that's the most expensive thing. It's like we have 5 99 to, so if you're thinking of that and someone's coming to the website to buy one, build a straw in a little pod, it's like 4 99 or about 4 99.[00:38:00]

I can't advertise. I can't advertise it. You can post for organic, uh, but you can't advertise on that. But if you think about it, the original softshell, which is the one that sells the best, it's 14 point 99 retail on its own. Um, but that I couldn't afford to advertise. So I offer bundles and they're heavily discounted and they come with freebies.

So people are buying four with the stuff. Now, that's where I can afford. So I make that so compelling. That's the really compelling offer. My bundles, and now I can afford the ad spend. Now I, I can afford it. So, and you can see on the, the data shows me that that's what people are buying. They're buying the multiples.

I can afford it. Um, so it's the only one I advertise.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Uh, if you wanna know more, check out big b little b.com and you can see the, the soft shells on there. I'm looking at them now. One's got blueberries in which is making me [00:39:00] slightly hungry. Uh, blueberries is my favorite fruit.

Amy Leinbach: All the, and, uh, I do my own photography, any of the product shots, that's a skill that I've learned. I've learned to do my own photography and, um, it's just a thing I've, I've found that I enjoy, I do try to build in. Um, I'm, you're not gonna find me easily outsourcing. I mean, I'll, I do have some other photographers from time to time, but I do like to find the things that I can spend time on in the business that I truly enjoy, because my favorite thing is the product development.

You can't do that all the time, but I do enjoy the photography.

Uh,

Matt Edmundson: they give you these little moments of pleasure, don't

Amy Leinbach: I make time for it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah.

And why would you not? I think it's, I think it's important to do that, um, you know, whatever you, but I think the trick is not to get just into that. Like,

if you just spend all your time on photography,

you've got a, you've

Amy Leinbach: No, but I, I've just found at this point in the business, I'm doing so much of the things that I do not get [00:40:00] that creative, part of me does not get filled up, right. My e-commerce day to day, and I'm a, I'm a creative person, and so. It's not something that I like go, oh, so I'm gonna spend all my time doing the creative.

No, I just allow myself those opportunities that are important to do. It's not like something that's not important, like it's important. Um, content creation all does is very important. Um, so I allow myself, um, but no, these days for, I am spending most of the time doing stuff that. Never had any background or never really enjoyed in a lot of cases, really struggled with, and, but I'm getting better and it's getting, it's getting easier.

It's getting so much easier actually

Matt Edmundson: Well, and also you're reaping the rewards a bit. Now, if your business is growing.

Amy Leinbach: Yeah, that makes it a lot easier.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Amy Leinbach: The day to day is a lot easier when you're, when it's, you know, the fruits of your labor are showing it's a little [00:41:00] tougher when they're not so, you know. That does help.

Matt Edmundson: it really, I mean, I've managed businesses where there's been rapid growth and I've managed businesses where there's been rapid decline, and it's definitely more fun when there's rapid

growth. Um, it definitely more fun. What's your, um, I mean you've mentioned the tariffs. Um, is, is that the biggest thing you are, you are kind of thinking about at the moment that could maybe derail you?

Not completely, but a little bit. Is there is or is there something else top of mind?

Amy Leinbach: Um, it's definitely the. The issue of the day, right? Like, and this will be something I'm working on, but I, I don't feel that I'll be drilled by it. It changes things. It, it's, you know, if the margins are gonna close a little bit, then it probably means fewer big sales and, you know, maybe. Turning a few things, but um, it's not a huge big deal, but [00:42:00] it is the thing of the day and it is the thing we have to plan for.

But like a couple weeks ago, the bill for our latest container of inventory was due, and that was the concern of the, the, you know, you're hand when you're handing over just huge amount of cash and you're like, okay, it's, and it wasn't a problem. Thankfully, you know, we. Plan to pay the bill, but it's just, you know what I mean?

In that moment you're like, okay, let's move this and that. So it really just depends when you ask me, like, there's nothing, there's nothing scaring me right now. Inventory will, I think, will scare me. I don't know that that's gonna go away because each time we order, we order more and more,

which means, you know, you're taking like everything you have so you can have even more delle.

Um, so that always. Stresses me out, but like I've heard that a billion times over, you know, and, and every time, even if you have presales, it still is like, it feels like such a risk. Like what if people get over this? Or what if, what if, what if, what if? But I don't feel [00:43:00] that there's anything, um, on the horizon, and especially because.

I'm not saying people need a soft shell, I'm not saying they like need our scrubbing. Like there's other, you know, things you can, you can have, but we don't sell stuff that's just purely superfluous. Like, these are things that help your life. There's, they're meant to be convenient, you know, and so it's not just like, oh, it's gonna be the first thing people say goodbye to with thing.

So I'm not, I'm not. Overly concerned. Um, it, I'm definitely going to be some of the things I'm working on though. Right now that, you know, I don't let this news derail me from the other priorities. Like I'm setting up a new affiliate program. That is still happening right now. That's still happening. My meetings are tomorrow.

Like that's what we're doing. That's not gonna change. Um, so the priorities remain the priorities for me, and I think that's something I've learned as well. Like, I [00:44:00] don't let other things. Take my attention anymore, like everybody's influx of emails can't be the thing I do first or the most important thing of the day, right?

The important thing of the day has to remain that, right? And affiliate marketing is part of my plan for this year. So that's gonna happen no matter what I have to do with the news. So.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Fantastic. Amy, I've got to the stage of the show where I am gonna ask you for question for Matt. This is where you give me a question, I'm gonna go away and answer it on social media. So what is your question for me?

Amy Leinbach: So I have to, so this is an assumption built in, so correct me if I'm wrong there. I assume there was a time then you, you just perhaps didn't want to do it. It wasn't feeling. Did you ever have a moment where you're just like, I don't know if this is it. I don't know if you can, I don't know if I can hack it.

I don't know if I can get past this [00:45:00] hurdle. I just, from a, like, there's too much negative happening right then. And you're feeling it, right? If you've had that, what got you over it or what few things got you past it?

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. I will answer that question over on LinkedIn. If you wanna know my answer to the question, come find me at Matt Edmundson on LinkedIn. I think that's probably one of the best questions I've been asked yet. Amy, I'm not gonna lie, I think that's a very, very good question. I'm looking forward to answering this

Amy Leinbach: I'm looking forward to reading it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, I'll tag you in the post,

no doubt. Now, um, if people wanna reach you, if they wanna find out more about what you do, what's the best way to do that?

Amy Leinbach: Um, you can find us on through the website. You'll see our social handles. You find us on Instagram, @bigbee_lilbee, L-I-L-B-E-E. Uh, the company is Big Bee Little Bee like a buzzing bee, but you can find, you can find us everywhere. And, um. I love, I really do love talking to, to community [00:46:00] members who are, you know, in the same, in the same journey, you know, even no matter what point you're in.

So don't hesitate.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Well, we will of course link to the website in the show notes, which, you know, if you're just on a podcast app, you can just literally scroll down as long as it's safe to do so you're not driving, of course. Uh, and just click the link and it'll take you through to Amens site. And of course, if you sign up to the email. The link will also be in the email. Yes, it will. So, uh, check that out as well. Amy, listen, I have tightly enjoyed our conversation.

One of the things I like to do. I should have told you this before we hit record. I'm really sorry. I just realized I didn't tell you everyone's listening. What did he not say? Um, one of the things I like to do is, uh, I have this thing at the end, this sort of last minute or so of the show called Save the Best Tool Last. Uh, and so I'm curious for those that you know, stay to the end and listen to the end, like to have a little bit of extra value, uh, what's [00:47:00] your, um. I guess, what's your top tip?

What would you, what's one thing that you'd maybe have not said that you think would be super, super helpful for, for people out there?

Amy Leinbach: So. I'd say don't let the fear of failing publicly stop you from making choices that you need to make. Okay. I've failed publicly. Um, I've succeeded publicly and I. Pretty much no one's paying attention, pretty much. No one's paying attention. You know what I mean? They, and if they're paying attention, they're paying attention for the 0.3 seconds of attention it takes to, you know what I mean?

To, to look at a post,

and then you're gone. You know, it, it may make you not feel good to hear it, I don't know, but like people aren't paying as much attention to your choices. Your successes and failures as you may think they are. So just, just do it. If it feels right, like just, just do [00:48:00] it. And if it doesn't work out, they only thought about it for 0.3 the second.

So I just do it. You know, there's gonna be so many choices. There's gonna be so many risks. You have to take so many, you know, ventures outside of your comfort zone, no one's watching.

Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Amy, thank you so much. Uh, loved,

loved, loved our conversation. Thank

you.

for coming on. Uh, and thank you for listening to the show. Like I say, if you wanna know more, head over to ecommerce-podcast.net. Um, but a big shout out to the team, uh, at Podjunction that put the podcast together.

Thanks to Josh Edmundson for writing the theme music, uh, and to all you eCommerce fanboys out there a bit like me, all you eCommercers. fun with it. Thank you, Amy, for joining us. Everybody else. I will see you next week. That's it from myself. That's it from Amy. Bye for now.