Stop Losing Customers After They Click Buy Now
Less than 30% of customers buy a product or service a second time, and subscription brands lose 50% of their customers within 90 days. Ken Rapp from BluStream reveals how brands can stop this leak through strategic post-purchase engagement across three stages: unboxing, usage, and care. By delivering personalised, timely support through messaging platforms, brands are achieving 30% increases in repeat sales and 30% reductions in churn—transforming the critical "doorstep to delight" phase that most competitors are still ignoring.
Less than 30% of customers buy a second time. In the subscription economy, brands lose 50% of new customers within 90 days. This isn't a marketing problem. It's a post-purchase problem.
Ken Rapp, CEO of BluStream, has spent years studying this gap. His company works with dozens of brands to transform what he calls the "doorstep to delight" phase—that critical window between when someone clicks "buy" and becomes a loyal customer. The results are a 30% increase in repeat sales and a 30% reduction in churn, simply by engaging customers in an ongoing, personalised way.
The Scale Problem
One of Ken's customers shared a story that perfectly captures the challenge. She sells dog probiotics, and when she was small, she knew every pet parent's name. She knew their dog's name. She knew whether it was a Chihuahua or a Great Dane. She could personalise every interaction.
"Then a funny thing happened," Ken explains. "She started to be successful. And as she started to be successful, she couldn't have a personal relationship anymore."
She got distribution through Whole Foods—a dream for most brands. But it meant game over for that personal connection. The very success that every business chases killed the thing that made customers fall in love with her brand in the first place.
This isn't a mistake brands are making. It's a limitation we've all accepted as inevitable. When you're small, you can handwrite notes. You can remember regular customers. The warehouse team recognises Jean's order and throws in a little extra. However, as you scale, those personal touches become increasingly challenging to maintain.
Or so we thought.
The Doorstep to Delight Framework
Ken breaks product ownership into three distinct stages where brands can create connection at scale:
Unboxing (or Activation): This is where skill level matters most. A beginner needs different support than an expert. Do they know they need batteries before the product arrives? Have they read the fine print that says results take three months, not three days?
"We've all invested in great CRMs and websites and e-commerce stores," Ken notes, "and then even track the product delivery all the way to the consumer. But then you're disconnected with that customer. They're left on their own to unbox that product."
Usage (or Engagement): This is what Ken refers to as "the second why." The first why is simple—someone wanted to buy trainers. The second why reveals how they'll actually use them. Are they training for a marathon? Wearing them daily for comfort? Treating themselves to a collection piece?
Understanding this second why changes everything. The brand can now offer relevant tips, track usage patterns, and make recommendations that feel almost magical—like suggesting new insoles at exactly 100 kilometres, right when the runner needs them.
Care and Maintenance: Not every product requires this stage, but for items such as guitars, beauty products, supplements, and others that require ongoing care, this is where the lifetime value is realised.
Ken learned this lesson the hard way with his own guitar. He bought a beautiful acoustic from a prestigious brand, loved the sound, and then watched it crack during Boston's dry winter. The brand had fantastic videos on humidification and care, but they weren't delivered when Ken needed them. He had to discover the problem himself, after the damage was done.
The Five-Message Rule
Here's a simple yet powerful tip that has created incredible engagement across BluStream's platform: don't send any coupons or review requests for the first five messages.
Just deliver value. Help customers get the most from their purchase. Build trust.
"We have over 90% of the consumers on behalf of dozens and dozens of brands still on journeys today, months, quarters, years later," Ken shares, "because they really appreciate getting tips and advice and having a connection back to the brand."
Think about your own inbox. How often do you get a review request before you've even unboxed the product? How many times have you received a coupon for a second purchase when you haven't tried the first one yet?
Brands do this because they're playing the numbers game at scale. But it's killing the very engagement they're trying to create.
The Leaking Boat Problem
Ken uses a vivid metaphor: "We spend all this money to get customers on the boat and then the boat is leaking."
Customer acquisition costs keep rising. Brands offer coupons and discounts to get that first sale. In the subscription world, they practically give away the first few products. And then 70% of customers never come back for a second purchase.
The numbers are even worse for subscriptions—50% churn within 90 days.
This isn't a product quality issue. It's not even a pricing issue. It's an experience issue. Customers feel abandoned after the sale. They struggle with unboxing. They're unsure of how to achieve the best results. They have questions but don't want to be embarrassed by calling support.
So they just... don't buy again.
The Vanilla Extract Moment
Ken shares another perfect example of where this breaks down. He and his colleagues bought a monthly baking kit for his grandkids, ages four to six. The first box arrived, and everyone gathered excitedly in the kitchen on Saturday morning to make honey cookies.
They opened the box and discovered they needed vanilla extract. Which, of course, they didn't have.
"Talk about the disappointment," Ken says. "All we needed to do is as soon as that e-commerce purchase is made, they get a thank you right out of the e-commerce system, tracking the shipment to the door. And in parallel, that act of buying triggers a couple of days later: 'Hey, thanks for becoming a great customer. We want to make sure you're ready to unbox your product when you're ready. Check out this link.'"
That link could show prerequisites—including vanilla extract, with a link to buy it if needed. A straightforward message would have prevented the disappointment and kept the experience delightful.
The Apple Standard
Apple understands this instinctively. Walk into an Apple Store to buy an iPad, and if you're not tech-savvy, someone will open it with you. Set it up with you. Show you on a big screen exactly how to do what you bought it for.
They'll charge you premium prices, but they'll give you an experience that makes you tell 20 friends to buy one.
Ken experienced this recently with a new iPhone. The setup process was so seamless—connecting to WiFi automatically, asking if he had his old phone nearby, transferring everything over—that he thought: "I will always stay with these Apple phones. Why would I go anywhere else? They just delighted me."
So how do you create that level of post-purchase experience online, at scale, without requiring every customer to visit a physical store?
Technology Meets Timing
The solution lies in meeting customers where they already are—on their phones, through messaging platforms like WhatsApp, SMS, or internet-based messaging.
Ken's platform allows brands to create what he calls "journeys"—automated but personalised dialogues that unfold based on how customers actually interact with products.
Click on a message right away? The system knows you're engaged and adjusts the cadence accordingly. Don't open it for three days? The journey adapts, recognising you're moving at a different pace.
The intelligence baked into these journeys means recommendations arrive at precisely the right moment—like suggesting new trainer insoles at 100 kilometres, or reminding guitar owners about humidification before winter dryness causes damage.
And brands already have most of the content they need. Those product videos, quick start guides, and care instructions sitting on websites? They're just not being delivered at the right time to the right people.
"You've already invested a huge amount of calories, human and financial economic, in your content," Ken points out. "This is another vehicle, post-sale, to be able to unbox, use, and take care of this beautiful product they bought from your brand."
Your Action Plan
If you want to stop losing 70% of your customers after the first purchase, start here:
- 1Map your product ownership stages. What does unboxing look like? What are the actual usage questions customers have? What ongoing care might they need?
- 2Identify your biggest repeat purchase gap. Which product lines should have higher repeat rates but don't? Start there.
- 3Audit your post-purchase communication. How quickly are you asking for reviews or pushing coupons? Can you wait five messages and just deliver value first?
- 4Look for "vanilla extract moments". What prerequisites do customers need to have in place before they can use your product successfully? Tell them before it arrives.
- 5Understand the second why. Why are customers really buying? How will they actually use the product? This determines what tips and guidance will feel relevant.
The future of eCommerce isn't just about getting people to click buy. It's about what happens after—from doorstep to delight.
As Ken puts it, "We used to buy by going to a store. E-commerce completely changed that. We all buy online now and don't need to talk to people. And to a degree, it's commoditized the landscape. The new frontier is going to be post-sale."
Your competitors are still fighting over customer acquisition. Meanwhile, you could be building loyalty with the customers you already have.
Full Episode Transcript
Read the complete, unedited conversation between Matt and Ken Rapp from BluStream. This transcript provides the full context and details discussed in the episode.
Full Episode Transcript
Read the complete, unedited conversation between Matt and Ken Rapp from BluStream. This transcript provides the full context and details discussed in the episode.
Matt Edmundson (00:04)
Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce podcast. My name is Matt Edmondson. It is great to be with you on this wonderful, not so sunny afternoon here in the UK, but it's, know, it's good to be with you, whatever the weather's doing in your part of the world. Really, really great, actually. And if you're new to the show, a very, very warm welcome to you.
We talk about all things e-commerce, which is, you know, it's not a surprise given the title of the podcast really. It's what we do. It's what we talk about. We talk about e-commerce. I myself am a bit of an e-commerce entrepreneur. I've been doing it since 2002. So, you know, a few years and just love it. Love doing these podcasts, love getting experts on, love getting founders on and just hearing stories and insights and all that sort of stuff. It's what we do. So if you're new with us, stick around.
And do subscribe to the show because we have a new episode coming out every week, which is just jam packed full of good stuff. And if you're with us, if you're a regular to the show and you haven't yet either signed up to the newsletter or you've not checked out cohorts, I would encourage you to do so. can find out more information at ecommercepodcast.net. The newsletter is just a weekly newsletter. We bring you obviously the notes and the links from the show with the guest. ⁓
And all of that, we just, also throw some extra stuff in there. We've, we've really worked hard to get this new newsletter up and running and delivering some insane value. So do subscribe to it. And of course, cohorts is our monthly group where just a bunch of us get together on zoom. There's no cost. We just talked to other e-commerce entrepreneurs. Some of them are just starting out. Some of them have been around for a while. And we're just shoot the breeze a bit about e-commerce, share your thoughts, share your ideas.
share your questions, stuff you're struggling with. We've got an actual message through on the WhatsApp group. have a little cohort WhatsApp group. And I saw that Tina was on there. Hi, Tina, if you're watching, what is your current conversion rate for organic? I'm finding it difficult to forecast based on previous two years. And they're running at, I won't tell you who Tina is or what her conversion rate is, because that's private for the cohort.
But that's the kind of thing that we do. We have like a little WhatsApp group and everybody just jumps in and join in. So if you want to know more about that, if you're in an e-commerce business, come join us. It's all free. It's all awesome. And more information, like I at ecommercepodcast.net. I am very excited to introduce to you Ken Rapp today. Now, Ken and I are going to be talking about something very near and dear to my heart. And I'll tell you why. Because whenever, if you've ever heard me talk about the slingshot framework,
You will know that I e-commerce is a series of things from product and branding to ⁓ marketing to conversion, those things that we have to think about. And they're the stuff that we always think about, I think. But every company I've ever gone into and done coaching with or anybody I've ever spoken to, the one area, this is the sixth area of our framework. I call it experience. Where I think every e-commerce business.
can look at and make some instant high returns is everything that happens after you have got a customer who's hit the buy now button. So they've gone to your website, they've put in their credit card details and they've gone for it. Everything from that point on is a really interesting process to think about. And so today's guest, Ken, is an expert in this, which is why I'm excited. It's a bit like Ken, the best analogy I've got, right? And tell me what you think about this.
is whenever you go into a coffee shop, ⁓ I, I, I've used this story before, but you go into a coffee shop and, ⁓ there's a favorite coffee shop of mine in, in, in town in Liverpool. I don't drink coffee by the way, but I do like to go in the coffee shop and you walk past this beautiful, you know, sort of cake, ⁓ drinks cabinet and it's got beautiful pastries and things like that in it's got a well presented menu and the baristas behind there chatting to you. What do you want? can, you know, put your
scan your card, get your buy one, you know, I think it's buy 10, get one free kind of thing. All of that happens as it should. And it's a wonderful experience. You know, the counter's good. You pay your money and then they just sort of shove you off to the other end of the bar where you stand bored. There's no experience. You just sort of stand there and you're waiting for your drink to arrive and they shout it out and you have to sort of go and collect it. And it's like everything in that coffee shop has been thought about.
until the point of purchase, but then everything after is just a bit, I don't understand it. And it's like, we've got your money, we don't care now. And that's the best analogy that I've got to describe why I think this is important. So Ken, welcome to the show. It's super good to have you. I'm super excited for this conversation, man.
Ken Rapp (04:58)
Thank you, Matt. I'm super excited as well, given the way you just described that you get us. So I can't wait to chat.
Matt Edmundson (05:07)
Yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ your company is called BlueStream, if I'm correct.
Ken Rapp (05:13)
That's right, Blue B-L-U Stream, no E in the blue.
Matt Edmundson (05:18)
Okay and just tell everybody a little bit about what your company does.
Ken Rapp (05:22)
Yeah, so we're all about that post-sale experience, ⁓ delighting the consumer. So we say it this way, we've all invested in great CRMs and websites and e-commerce stores and then even track the product delivery all the way to the consumer. If it's a shipment, it's tracked to the door. If it's in your example in the coffee shop, it's
Matt Edmundson (05:46)
Mm-hmm.
Ken Rapp (05:51)
handing that consumer the coffee. But let's take it, if it's a shipped product from e-commerce to the door, you're then disconnected with that customer. It's exactly as you described it. And they're left on their own. We're all left on our own to unbox that product. And if I've done it 10 times, no problem. I'm probably in pretty good shape unboxing it. If I've never had the product before,
I'm looking for the quick start guide or trying to read the side of the label or trying to figure out how to do that. And we call it that doorstep to delight stage where ⁓ we're kind of on our own. We may get an email with a, with even a request to leave a review. I might not have unboxed it yet, but I get asked if I could leave a review. I may get a coupon to buy another, another product, but I never tried. haven't even tried it yet.
Matt Edmundson (06:20)
Yep.
Ken Rapp (06:47)
And, you know, this whole concept of after sale is where we see a great opportunity for brands to connect with their customers around the product experience, which is then going to drive this loyalty and repeat. You can make the recommendations of the next sale, the repeat sale, and totally change the game on that connection and that customer delight for a lifetime ⁓ of brand value.
Matt Edmundson (07:17)
Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. That's so true. I love that phrase doorstep to delight. That's that's, I'm gonna steal that Ken. I'm not gonna lie. I'm totally going to steal it. so if you, absolutely. No problem. So here's a question for you that I like to ask my guests, right? Right at the start. So in this whole area, if you had a magic wand, you know, that you could wave and solve.
Ken Rapp (07:27)
Just give us credit for it any time. Say it as much as you want.
Matt Edmundson (07:43)
One key problem, the mistake that you see most companies making in this area and in this space. What would that be? What would that mistake be that you would fix? I'm really curious. What's the biggest thing that we're all doing?
Ken Rapp (08:02)
Yeah, I don't know if it's a mistake or it's that there's not been a way as you scale to actually have a personal connection with your consumer at scale. I'll tell you a story one of our customers told us. She said that when she was small, she sells dog probiotics for your dog's gut. And she said that her consumer would come in and she called them pet parents.
Matt Edmundson (08:23)
Right.
Ken Rapp (08:31)
She knew the pet parent's name. She knew the dog's name. She knew whether it was a Chihuahua or a Great Dane. And she could really guide, you know, the conversation, personalizing that experience. Then a funny thing happened. She started to be successful. And as she started to be successful, she couldn't, she had too many customers. She couldn't have a personal relationship anymore. And so she got a great deal and is distributing through Whole Foods. And now it's game over.
Matt Edmundson (08:33)
Love that.
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (09:01)
And she had and others, and she has no way of being connected. So I don't think it's a mistake. think it's a desire we all have to help our customer. Have a great experience, a delightful experience, not only unboxing it if they're new to it, but then using the product and really getting the most out of the usage. call it engaging with the product. And so I think what the mistake might be to not be looking for solutions that can, that are coming about that's.
Matt Edmundson (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Ken Rapp (09:31)
That's one of the biggest challenges a company like BlueStream is facing when our product experience technology is new. And so it's just getting the word out. So keep an eye out for things like this would be the only risk. If you don't keep an eye out, then you may miss the opportunity to actually solve that problem out of the gate.
Matt Edmundson (09:52)
Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I think I can see how that would work. So when we started out in e-commerce and when we're a small company, it's easy to do things like put in the handwritten notes, you know, there's a company where I buy ⁓ pens from, I've talked about them before called Tom's Studio. There's a ⁓ company where I buy stationery from, it's just a small little stationary store and they're great.
And every time I buy from them, get these sort of lovely handwritten notes, you know, and they're telling me a story or there's something and they're doing it well. And you can see that they're, caring and they're putting a lot of attention to that. And we did that right. When we were first doing our beauty business, we were like, well, let's do handwritten notes because it's personalized. shows we care. ⁓ but it, there came a point when that became untenable because you were sending out
hundreds, not thousands of orders. I mean, it would take you longer to write the note than pack the order. so as you, I can see as you scale that, and I'm not saying everybody should do handwritten notes. What I'm saying is as you scale these, these things where you get to know your customers become more and more difficult. I remember in the early days, the, the, people picking and packing in the warehouse would start to recognize certain customers who were buying time and time again.
And so they would, they, the guys in the warehouse would then add things to their box to say, Hey, Jean, good to see you back. It's Nicola here. I packed your order last time. ⁓ I see your regular customer here, something for you. And, and, and again, that worked really well up into a point where you had just way too many customers and the guys just couldn't, there's no way that they could remember it. And so we would think about, well, do we systematize that and how do we do that? But it was, it was hard at the time.
And so there is this inevitability, suppose, as you scale that doing those kinds of things becomes more and more complicated. And so you just go, wow, we just can't do it anymore. Which I think is a shame. I, so I agree with you that actually, when you scale, there is, like I say, you, just sort of start to go, well, this is not possible anymore. ⁓ so it's intriguing. You say that that's the biggest thing that you'd like to see changed.
Ken Rapp (12:15)
Yeah, interesting with what you're saying. It's fantastic. ⁓ Think about that ownership experience at scale. if you already knew what to do, you knew what was delighting your customers from those early days. And as you start to scale, if you could automate those and systematize those, you basically create dialogues ⁓ that would be as if you were there.
Matt Edmundson (12:28)
Mm.
Ken Rapp (12:42)
And there are moments throughout the life cycle of ownership that actually are great low hanging fruit to do that. But there hasn't been a way for you to, for you or I to do that. And that's what really blue stream is all about our PX platform. So for example, when unboxing a pair of sneakers, you know, asking, well, thank you for being a great customer. Do you know how we make these sneakers? It's like, here's a message from our founder and we see WhatsApp.
SMS text messaging or even internet-based messaging is the vehicle we're using right now to communicate. it's this, hey, Ken, thanks for buying our sneakers. Here's a message from our founder. And if I click on that, then you know I'm engaging. If I don't, maybe I haven't had time now. I would click on it later. Let's say it's a few days later. Those two differences, whether I clicked right away or clicked three days later, is it ⁓
changing the personalization to me. If you clicked right away and I clicked three days later, my cadence of the journey, we call it, that messaging set of dialogues will be different and personalized to each of us individually. The next step is, geez, how often, why did you buy those sneakers? We're just curious, was it to, you planning to run a marathon? Are you gonna use them every day?
Or is this something that you bought for special occasions? Because my son has a closet full of Nike sneakers. So by knowing that second why I call it, the first why is you wanted a pair of sneakers. Like I wanted to see some sneakers. The second why is why do you actually have the sneakers? And if it's because I want to exercise, well, maybe there's
Matt Edmundson (14:23)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (14:32)
some tips there around exercise that are different than if I'm actually going to run a marathon. And that's different than if I'm just going to wear them every day for the fall because I like the comfort of my feet. And then knowing a little bit about the usage. Ask a question, like being able to ask via WhatsApp or text. Hey, that's great. We're really excited. You want to train for a 10K at the end of the summer or by October 31st for a
⁓ 10k, jeez, and if you're, how many miles a week are you running now? And you say, ⁓ I'm going about, I'm ramped up to three miles or 5k or whatever they say. Having the intelligence baked into the journey that already knows that at 50 kilometers or at 100 miles or whatever it is it turns out to be, you really ought to change the inserts because for comfort and for,
Matt Edmundson (15:28)
Mm.
Ken Rapp (15:31)
pain and to help you with your ergonomics, you really should change. Making that recommendation at about 40 kilometers, ⁓ it's like magic, right? Now you're having the brand actually know something about how you're using and engaging with their products and then giving you tips and recommendations that are completely relevant. Maybe there's some rain coming and they have a water proofer that the brand sells.
Matt Edmundson (15:45)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (16:01)
But the consumer who bought the sneakers doesn't remember that. they're tracking toward their 10k at the end of October. And they could use that tip right there and then because the weather changed. So all of these dialogues. And then I'll just sort of finish the thought, Matt, with what's beautiful is technology. The technology of texting, of WhatsApp, of internet messaging.
even voice now is coming of age to the point where we as consumers, we engage and interact well with our phones. so we're riding that technology, ⁓ BlueStream is riding that technology curve. And basically what we've built is a ⁓ journey, a product experience journey, ⁓ experience.
platform that you can set up a journey in 15 minutes and then do some edits in a couple of hours and you're up and running. And taking your experience as a brand and automating that into the marketplace.
Matt Edmundson (17:03)
Yeah.
Well, this is interesting, isn't it? And I, ⁓ I'm just, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm just reminded of, ⁓ an episode we did back in July with, ⁓ Abhishek Chandra. I just want to make sure I pronounced the name right. Abhishek was interesting because he, they're a company called go quick. don't know if you've come across them, ⁓ Indian based company and they use WhatsApp in their technology. And they found just by using WhatsApp alone.
The impact was quite extraordinary. ⁓ but they were just using it more for things like car abandonment where you're using it and where your suggestion taken, actually becomes a bit more interesting. It's almost like to the customer. feels like somebody on the other end of the somebody's at the other end of the WhatsApp asking intelligent questions rather than, Hey, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how likely are you to recommend this to a friend? Which is, that's an interesting question, but it's as dull as dishwater, isn't it?
⁓ and I think I like that because that's smart. You're asking smart questions about the product that's going to help the consumer on a platform like WhatsApp, which is probably something that's going to get straight to them as opposed to something like email, which I suppose you could use. ⁓ and maybe you can talk to that, but, I like it. I think it's smart, isn't it? But how do you, I know you've got your platform, but obviously there's people listening to the show who are just starting out or who don't have your platform.
⁓ what advice would you give to someone that maybe hasn't got some of this automated technology, but that there may be some quick wins to at least get them on the road.
Ken Rapp (18:49)
Yeah, that's a great question. So we launched a technology ⁓ in June that we put out there into the world. And all of your listeners are welcome to go try it on our website, which is blueblustream.io, called the Journey Builder. And you literally can put in your company name and pick one of your product lines or product categories. And Journey Builder automatically
does a couple things, but it produces a roadmap of engagement areas around your product by looking out on the internet and it says, okay, what is publicly available around that product that would be relevant for this brand, particularly to engage the customers around from the, what we call prerequisites and unboxing or activation of the relationship.
Matt Edmundson (19:26)
Okay.
Ken Rapp (19:46)
the engagement phase where consumers are using the product and you start to get to know the data around usage, and then care and maintenance, those three areas, unboxing, usage, and care. And so Journey Builder produces a roadmap of, oh, a dozen, 15 different areas that you could engage. And so that's free. That's on our website to go look at. It also produces a flow chart of engagement, dialogue based on our data lake.
of millions and millions of interactions that are out there between consumers and brands. And so we're happy to share that with any of your listeners and any new potential clients for us, because we're on a mission to help connect companies with their consumers around product experiences. And it's that data lake workflow or flow chart that you could simply have a look at it. It even has questions in there, like you unbox. Here's a great one.
Matt Edmundson (20:30)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (20:43)
If you don't have any batteries, the prerequisite, right? Did you know before you even after the e-commerce, as you said, is purchased for some ⁓ product that needs batteries, did you know you need batteries before it arrives at the door? So the delight phase starts actually a little bit before the doorstep. It's before the door. But it's like, imagine that those dialogues going on and Journey Builder, which is a link on our website.
Matt Edmundson (21:02)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (21:10)
will allow you to put in your company brand, your brand name and a product line and you'll get this roadmap as well as a workflow you can load into BlueStream system and it'll start running. We get you up and running, you know, within a few hours. You're able to test it. So I love starting small. Pick one of your product lines, probably where you're not getting repeat business. The best place to go is look for your, one of your products or some of your major products where you're not getting the kind of
repeat business and ⁓ continuations of subscriptions that you really, as a brand, you really are passionate about and you believe you should, but you're not getting that. And unfortunately, the reason we exist ⁓ and we're so passionate about helping the post-sale arena is most of us, I think the stats are less than 30 % of consumers buy a second or third time. So, you know, we spend all this money
Matt Edmundson (22:06)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (22:08)
to get a consumer on customer acquisition and with coupons and then we don't get the second or third sale 70 % of the time. And in the subscription economy, we literally give away the first few products trying to get a customer to start, but we lose 50 % of those within 90 days. So all this money spent to get customers on the boat and then the boat is leaking. And so we see an incredible
Matt Edmundson (22:24)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (22:38)
absolutely dramatic change there. The revenue repeat sales will increase by 30%, churn will reduce by 30%. Just by engaging your customer in an ongoing way that's personalized to them and relevant to the customer. And you mentioned earlier, we all get messages post-sale on email. We have a rule of thumb. So I'd share with your listeners.
Don't send any coupons or asks for reviews for five messages. Just a rule of thumb that has created incredible engagement on our platform. have over 90 % of the consumers on behalf of dozens and dozens of brands. 90 % of their consumers are still on journeys today.
months, quarters, years later, because they really appreciate getting tips and advice and having a connection back to the brand.
Matt Edmundson (23:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, I love that. ⁓ Very simple, practical tip. Do not send anything in the first five messages where it's a coupon to buy again or asking for a review. Does deliver value. ⁓ Love, love that. I'm curious if I can just back up a little bit, You talked about the journey builder, ⁓ looking at three areas, unboxing, usage and care. They're the three areas that you said. Why those three areas?
Ken Rapp (24:08)
So if you think about all of us, all of your listeners and all of us who buy products, we have defined those as the stages of product ownership. Now, there's no magic to it. It's simply we've bought products and brought them home, and then we unbox them. And we've all faced that problem. ⁓ I'm only 35 in here, but if I bought a supplement to grow my hair back, ⁓ I expect it to grow back within a week or so.
Matt Edmundson (24:25)
Mm-hmm.
Ken Rapp (24:35)
Actually, if I read the fine print, it's going to take almost three months. And so we unbox and our skill level and experience with a product is what's the variable there. So you're going to unbox. But if you have a new user, a beginner versus an intermediate versus an expert, they have different needs for that unboxing. So that's stage one. Then they move to the engagement stage or what we call usage or engagement. And now,
Matt Edmundson (24:39)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (25:04)
using the product is that second why and we love it's the lifestyle. Why did you buy the product? Well, because I decided I'd like to grow some hair back, you know, and so I need some coaching. I need to understand what the you know, what the product how the product works and how long it's going to take and some reassurance that I made a good decision once I've started using the product. Not only that, but imagine if you're the brand, the kind of data you start to see.
start to see where your customers are having trouble unboxing so you can take corrective action. You start to see how your customers, your consumers, are actually using your products. And there's so much wonderful knowledge. And your consumers want the help. So they're giving you zero-party data about how often they use the product or why they're using the product. It's perfect timing there at that interface between unboxing and usage.
Matt Edmundson (25:38)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (26:02)
to get, then you ask for the review and we see unbelievably high reviews and way more of them, Boston term, way more of. ⁓ We see so many more that we amplify the consumers that are your best consumers. So you go from unboxing to usage and then care is not for every product. there, you could, we see that in the usage stage, how should I store my smoothies in the freezer? Like I, based on my usage.
Matt Edmundson (26:09)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (26:30)
Do I put them in the freezer? How many are in the bag? And maybe some tips on some food and BAV or some ⁓ beauty products that I should store in a certain way and not in another way or supplements. But then there's the real care around things like guitars. And as we chatted earlier, I'm a crazy rock and roll guitarist. And this all started because one of my guitars, and I have, don't tell my wife, I have a lot of guitars, but I bought a new...
Matt Edmundson (26:51)
Yeah, yeah.
I think she probably
knows, Ken. I think she probably... If your wife is like mine, she knows. She might not say, but she knows.
Ken Rapp (27:01)
See you, bro.
She knows, you're right, she knows. But I got this new guitar from a prestigious brand, beautiful brand, got it home, loved the sound. And then just about this time of year, October, November here in the Boston area, things get dry and they start getting very dry. I had no idea that this acoustic guitar was so sensitive to the wood, was so sensitive to dryness and it cracked. ⁓ And so...
Matt Edmundson (27:08)
You
Mm-hmm, right.
Ken Rapp (27:33)
That was the concept was, boy, either the guitar should have been talking to me, like I could scan a QR code in the case and ask a question, or it should have proactively with a journey from that brand given me the heads up, or the brand should have been talking to me in a way that, hey, we're here for the long haul. know guitars are, they stay in families for long periods of time. We're here with, it's almost a VIP club, or most of our, ⁓
client brands, they actually brand around this post-sale ability with a ⁓ VIP club or the concierge, digital concierge or something. We have one of our customers who actually made it an octopus. They personified it with an octopus. Lots of the legs that will give you lots of tips and tricks and things. But so.
We really were able to, when we step back and define where we were going to bring value to our clients and their customers into those three stages, to go back to your question, unboxing, usage, and care and maintenance.
Matt Edmundson (28:40)
It's really interesting, isn't it? I'm writing lots of notes, Ken, as you're talking, because I, as I get the unboxing, that's an obvious thing, right? Like 90 % of people are going to be unboxing our products, unless it's a digital product, in which case they're still unboxing. It's just clicking a link, right? And you've still got to make that interesting. Um, I remember when we, with our beauty company, actually, when we looked at that unboxing experience, we realized for our customers, they...
When they bought products from us, they were actually buying a gift for themselves. They were treating themselves. It's not how we saw it. We just thought they were buying better skincare, but it wasn't. They were buying a treat. And so we changed the unboxing experience to be more gift-like. A simple thing. I mean, relatively simple. We added an extra flap to the box and we included tissue paper. Two changes, which added about two cents worth of cost to an order.
And we did some other things as well to sort of tie in some of the values that we had, like fun and things. But when we looked at that unboxing experience and changed it to suit the story the customers had in their head as to why they were going back to your second why. Guess what? Our repeat purchase rate just went up. You know, two cents a box. Thanks for that. I'll do that all day long.
Ken Rapp (29:59)
Yeah,
you bet.
Matt Edmundson (30:01)
Especially with an average order value, I think it was like 70 or 80 pounds, know, somewhere around there. what, like 90, a hundred bucks somewhere. And so of course you're going to spend two cents because your repeat purchase rate was visibly noticeably different. ⁓ And then on the usage side of things, ⁓ the thing that I wrote down as you're talking in terms of skill level, I always wondered, and I've heard it used as an example in the past, but I...
I'm always amazed that whenever I buy a bottle of shampoo, Ken, cause I have to wash my hair. This is the, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. So I, every time you buy a bottle of shampoo, you read on the back, the instructions on how to use that brand of shampoo. Now I've probably washed my hair 10,000 times throughout my lifetime.
Ken Rapp (30:37)
Lucky you. ⁓
Matt Edmundson (30:56)
I think I'm pretty good at washing my hair, right? Just like the majority of the population. Yet for some reason we have to write instructions on the back of the bottle. And they use it as an example, don't they? In copyrights and one of the best things a copywriter ever did was just write the word repeat, rinse and repeat on the back of the shampoo bottle. And it doubled their sales because everybody washed their hair twice all of a sudden.
But it's interesting, if I go to a different brand, the first thing I do is read the instructions on the back of the box. you're kind of like, yeah, but I know what I'm, when I think about it logically, I'm like, but I know what I'm doing. I'm fairly sure. You're like, yeah, but this brand might be different. The quantity might be different. I don't know. I just want to check. You know, there's this sort of thoughts going through your head. And so I can see how thinking about the customer journey in those three areas makes a lot of sense. Right. I can see that.
Ken Rapp (31:52)
It's actually, you raise a great point. There are products that will not really need a lot of engagement. And, you know, maybe some unboxing is the way to go. So we've actually broken our platform into those three stages. So you can start with what we call activation with you and your customer, new customers, and stay there. Just, that's all you're going to do is unboxing. And then if you want to add the journeys that go sort of 30 to 90 days.
that'll drive engagement and repeat sales, then you include sort of the unboxing or activation into engagement. And then for those products that you want to go all the way to a lifetime connection with care and maintenance, you can go to that stage. And there are three different layers of being able to use our technology. sometimes, you know, buying a bottle of water, I really, I don't need a lot of help telling me how to drink water. On the other hand, when I'm...
trying a new supplement or a beauty product, and I'm a beginner and never tried it before, skincare, it's incredibly valuable to help that individual really purely from all of our hearts, feel like they get that value from, and they're delighted with that product experience, and then they will buy again and again and again. So it's really an LTV question. When I zoom out from it, I say,
Matt Edmundson (33:07)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (33:17)
What's the lifetime value opportunity between me and my consumer ⁓ as a brand? And then if I know that it's going to be, there's no way to change the curve. It's like Ken drinks a bottle or two of water every day and he keeps coming back to the store that he goes to and he buys them, no big deal. But when it's supplements or beauty products or wellness products or these days as we're all, there's an aging population, like I said, even though I'm young in here.
You know, we're all interested, or for our pets, pet wellness. So, people wellness, pet wellness, beauty products, ⁓ food and bed, we see tremendous growth going on there. But even ⁓ one of the fun ones for me is I have grandkids. I have three little ones now between the ages of four and six. Really crazy fun.
Matt Edmundson (34:09)
wow.
Ken Rapp (34:12)
And there's products you can buy to engage your grandkids. So some colleagues and I, we talked about buying this food baking ⁓ kit that's a monthly kit, which you can learn from. So the first one came and it's all about honey and bees and we're gonna make honey cookies and the form factor of like a honeycomb and put some honey on top of it and all that. And...
Matt Edmundson (34:33)
Mm.
Ken Rapp (34:40)
You can imagine, just picture this, we all got together and coming into the kitchen, we scheduled it for a Saturday morning and the grandkids are there and everybody's excited and open the box and the first thing it says inside the box is that you need some vanilla extract. And guess what we don't have?
Matt Edmundson (35:01)
Guess
what you didn't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see it coming, can't you?
Ken Rapp (35:04)
So talk about the disappointment in all we needed to do now is as soon as that e-commerce purchase is made, they get a thank you like they do today right out of the e-commerce system, tracking the shipment to the door. And in parallel, that act of buying triggers a couple of days later, hey, thanks for becoming a great customer. We want to make sure you're ready to unbox your product when you're ready. Check out this link.
And then if on the link is going to be that connection point to say, you could use some vanilla extract. If you don't have it, here's a place even to buy it. And so you could get that cross-sell, whether it's batteries or vanilla extract. I love that emotion. That's, that's the post-sale emotion. You know, our super customers, like our super fans, they, they stay high. They, they stay connected proactively. You know, they're, they'll all keep coming back to us.
Matt Edmundson (35:38)
Yeah.
Mm.
Ken Rapp (36:03)
It's the customer that makes the decision to buy first time. And then the buyer's remorse sets in and then maybe they start trying to get the product unboxed. And, and we've all done this. We've, we, it's not going great and we're not sure why. so rather than bother, I don't want to be embarrassed by calling the company. I'll just, I'll just sort of have an extra, a few extra screws or bolts, you know, that didn't, I couldn't figure out how to make them work, but it's, it's good enough. And then I'm not delighted.
Matt Edmundson (36:10)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (36:31)
But I bought it once, I don't buy it again. And that's really what we're all about is creating an emotional connection between a brand and their customer. And prior to us, I think we all looked at the world through the customer, the consumers in the center of the circle, and the product is the ring around them. Lootstream just shifted those two things. The product is actually the connection cord between a brand and their customer. That's what you have in common.
Matt Edmundson (36:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (37:00)
We put the consumer around it. The buyer is the ring around the product. And there's so many engagement points with your products from unboxing to usage to care that we just create these, it's a new channel for businesses to have to continue commerce as well as create referrals and fantastic reviews.
Matt Edmundson (37:14)
Mm.
It's as I'm listening to you talk, the company that is immediately spring into my mind is Apple. and I, I, I'll explain why I think I agree with you in the sense that because we have been around the product that we are selling for so long, we carry insane amounts of knowledge about that product. Right. And so it's really easy to assume that our customers have the same amount of knowledge.
And this is true with content. We often think, well, I don't know what content to put out there. I talked about this particular feature six months ago. And you're like, if you spoke about it six minutes ago, they've forgotten about it, right? We have this assumption that people know what we know. And when we tell them what we know, we have this assumption that they remember it. And I think both of those things are false assumptions.
And one of the things that I often, I say to people, listen, if you ever want a lesson in this kind of stuff, just go stand in the Apple store because these guys are insane at this kind of thing whereby you can buy the iPad, for example, there. And if you're not tech savvy, well, guess what? They're going to open the iPad with you. They will set it up with you in the store. Some guy is going to come over wearing a headset and show you.
on a big screen how to do exactly what it is you bought the iPad for, right? And I think it's a remarkable experience in so many ways. And I think what you're talking about is doing online. I think what Apple do in store, it's that care that...
Yeah, we're going to charge you a shed load of money for this product. Yes, they're overpriced, but we're going to give you a customer service that is second to none and an experience where you go and tell 20 of your friends to buy one because you've had such a good experience. And I think they do that remarkably well. And, and there's such powerful lessons in there, you know, and, and I think it's super great. I love it. I love the tips that you've given us. I love this idea of thinking about
these three buckets, you know, the unboxing, the usage and the care. think that's great. I'm going to get a lot of mileage out of this can going to get a lot of mileage, no doubt.
Ken Rapp (39:41)
I have a, ⁓
if I could, have a thought there about Apple because I'm with you. You know, I got a new phone recently and not only is it in the store, but imagine post-sale, I bought a phone and I've decided I'm going to use Apple and I get a new phone because they're always trying to get us to upgrade phones, whether we need it or not. So, and I was blown away by the experience. They basically said, just open the phone, it came charged.
Matt Edmundson (40:01)
Yeah. Yep.
Ken Rapp (40:11)
And I opened it up and it says to me, is this your Wi-Fi? It started there. I said, as a matter of fact, it is. And then it said, well, great. I'm going to connect in. And then do you have your old phone? And I said, as a matter of fact, I do right over here. I said, go ahead and turn that on and bring it over within proximity of the new phone. In other words, the experience I had, and it brought all my file, it brought everything over. then I said, now what do I do?
Matt Edmundson (40:15)
Yep.
Mm.
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (40:41)
I'm like, I will, I will at this point, I would say, I'm just going to always stay with those Apple phones. I'm why would I go anywhere else? They just delighted me. Right. And another point you made, which I think is really important for your listeners too. We talk about this all the time. You've already invested a huge amount of calories, human and financial economic in your content. go to a website today and there's tons of excellent.
Matt Edmundson (40:50)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (41:12)
excellent videos and startup guides and tips and things. But to your point, six seconds after I was on the website and I go back to my daily routine, I'm getting bombarded with other people telling me and ads on my Facebook or on my Google, just because I went out and looked at a new supplement and the next thing you know, I'm getting bombarded and I can't remember that it was on your website. But what we've done with our product experience, the journeys is
have links to your content. You already have it. This is the other part that's, you know, in terms of the amount of effort it takes to get up and running this post sale engagement, you don't have to build much content because you've already got it up there, but it's not being delivered at the right time. It's delivered and designed as that pre-sale website. And then when someone has a problem, they kind of don't come back to your website. They go to like a search engine and just search on the problem and they may get the wrong answer, you know.
Matt Edmundson (41:55)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (42:10)
like they're a competitive answer. So here what we do is the journeys, the other secret sauce of the journeys that we've, with Journey Builder that ⁓ gets created is there's spaces to put in your current content, like the Quick Start Guide or a video from your product management team or in my case when the guitar was in trouble, this guitar brand has fantastic videos on taking care of the guitar from truss rod adjustments to
humidifying the guitar when it's not in use. And they have them all, but they were not delivered to me when my guitar cracked. And so that really is, like, I think you're right on. The content is already there. It's the fact that we're all in this white noise now, that it doesn't stay front and center when we need it. And so this is another vehicle, post-sale, to be able to unbox, use, and take care of.
Matt Edmundson (43:09)
Mm.
Ken Rapp (43:09)
this
beautiful product they bought from your brand and you've already got all the answers, got all the content you need.
Matt Edmundson (43:15)
Yeah, that's great. And you're right. It's no longer just about creating the content. It's about understanding the mechanism to deliver the content in a way that makes sense for the customer. ⁓ because it's not just a case now, I'll put out a blog post and that'll solve my problem. because that's not going to be the case. Ken, listen, great conversation, brother. And I, let me ask you, ⁓ the question I like to ask my guests.
A question for me, please. Good. So where this is the part of the show where you give me a question and I will answer that question on social media. It can be about absolutely anything. So Ken, what is your question for me?
Ken Rapp (43:54)
So how does a company that has an innovative technology like we have get our word out in the most effective way so that we can help? We're really on a mission purely to help companies connect with their customers around the product experience post-sale. And there's so much white noise out there. It's, sure, a common problem for all of your audience, whether it's pre-sale or not.
Matt Edmundson (44:21)
Yeah.
Ken Rapp (44:24)
But for us being new and innovative, there's so much history here that we've been inundated with systems and new products. And so how do you fight through that noise? It'd be great to have you think about that and give us some guidance out there. And I love what you said earlier, what you got with your cohorts and the questions. I just think you're so much help to businesses like ours. Matt, thank you.
very much. question is just give us keep giving us guidance on how do you how do we bring innovation to you know to e-commerce.
Matt Edmundson (44:59)
Hmm.
Fantastic. That's a great question. And if you want to know how I would answer Ken's question, then make sure you follow me on social media, well, specifically LinkedIn. You can follow me on Instagram and maybe I'll start putting the answers on Instagram. I've rarely used it, but definitely LinkedIn. Go check me out on LinkedIn, Amit Edmondson. Ken, listen, love the show, love the question, love the conversation.
How do people reach you? How do they connect with you? If they want to do that, maybe they've got some more questions for you. Maybe they just want to find out about Bluestream. Where do we go?
Ken Rapp (45:31)
So it's Ken at BlueBLUstream, no E on that, blustream.io. So feel free to reach out to me directly. And our website is blueblustream.io if you want to try running the Journey Builder for yourself and see, and you get the free report for engagement and then the flowchart that we can talk about and load into our system to try it. And then we'll provide you, Matt, with some links
so that it's easy for your audiences. Click a few links and get up to our resources.
Matt Edmundson (46:05)
Fantastic. We will of course put those links in the show notes, which will be either in your inbox, if you're subscribed to the newsletter, or if you're on YouTube, just go into the description or if you're listening to the podcast, they will also be in the show notes on the podcast player. Do reach out to Ken, do check out that free journey builder as well. I'm sure you'll find that super, super helpful. But Ken, listen, we're at the end of the show. So this is the bit where I ask
for your best top tip. I'm gonna give you the mic for two minutes, the last two minutes of the show. Watch your highest value top tip that you can give to listeners. The mic is yours, my friend.
Ken Rapp (46:48)
Thank you. I'm a little nervous about that. That's a lot of pressure. I think I would say that our customers tell us that what they love about BlueStream is our people and our team. And so I just offer, if anyone out there wants to explore the reality and practicality of opening up a new channel post-sale,
Matt Edmundson (46:53)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Ken Rapp (47:16)
We're here for you. Whether you ever decide to try something from us or anywhere else, we're on a mission to help the world. Someday, ⁓ every box that arrives on a doorstep will be able to talk to you, talk to your customer. And they can ask it a question and it will just simply answer the relevance to that question. It'll hit that relevant question for unboxing usage or care.
And we've got a lot of experience now. We have tons of end consumers and brands and be happy to share all of our resources with any of your listeners.
Matt Edmundson (47:53)
Fantastic, Ken, listen, loved it, man. Thanks for so much for coming on the show and love what you guys are doing. Keep up the good work and no doubt we'll speak to you again soon.
Ken Rapp (48:05)
Thank you so much, Matt. What you're doing is critical for us to continue to evolve around e-commerce. The world has changed. A final thought here is, you know, we used to buy by going to a store. ⁓ E-commerce completely changed that. We all buy online now and don't need to talk to people. And to a degree, it's commoditized the landscape. It's made it so I can type in sneakers and I'll get...
Thousands of alternatives that I never used to get if I went to the store. So the new the new ⁓ Frontier, know is going to be post the sale and so we'd be delighted to work with your audience and keep up what you're doing Thank you so much Appreciate it
Matt Edmundson (48:46)
Well, there you go. No, thank you. And on that bombshell, ladies and gentlemen, we will close out today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And like I say, if you want to know anything more about cohort, all that sort of stuff, we'll get today's links. The easiest place maybe is the website, ecommercepodcast.net. But that's it from me. That's it from Ken. Until next time, you have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye for now.
