How SEO Ranking Can Improve Your Customer Experience

welcome to the ecommerce podcast with matt edmondson a show that brings you regular interviews tips and tools for
building your business online
[Music]
hi and welcome to the ecommerce podcast with me your host matt edmondson this week we get to hear from nick
truman as i ask him all kinds of questions about how seo can help us improve our customer
experience you're not going to want to go anywhere hey there are you a business owner here
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thanks for joining us on the ecommerce podcast it is great that you are here now whether you are just starting out or
if like me you've been around the world of e-commerce for a while my goal is to help you grow your e-commerce and
digital businesses yes it is it's as simple as that and to do that every week i get to talk to amazing people from the
world of e-commerce and ask them all kinds of questions about what they know and how it's going to help us
to grow and to develop online i say that i try and have the conversations that you would get to have with them if you
sat down and just had a cup of coffee for half an hour that's right we dig into their story we learn the principles
that can help us start and adapt and grow online and today as i said i get to chat to nick truman about seo ranking
and how it can improve our customer experience and nick let me tell you about nick nick is a top
bloke yes he is i really enjoy this conversation uh when you're a junior google ads expert it's not easy
apparently to become one of the industry leaders that is until nick comes along
and became an seo guru in his own right now you have to guess
before we go any further how many three-letter acronyms we can get into this podcast seo yes we are ppc is another one
pay-per-click and seo search engine consultancy uh certainly consultancy search engine optimization if you don't
know what they are and that's what we're talking about today so nick now runs a successful ppc an seo consultancy called
spec he is the ceo of just ed parker and a host of the very well known winning
with shopify podcast it's a great podcast you should definitely check it out and nick's had a colorful career yes
yes he's been a board member at four marketing advertising companies he has sold his own business in and he has
worked for over brands his experience ranges from local
smes to well-known retailers all over the world and in his spare time
apparently because he has some nick works in a parallel universe to do digital at a steam railway yes he
does he's currently also training to become a fireman and then one day a driver so who knows what exciting
adventures he'll have next so why don't we jump in and find out here's my
conversation with nick nick welcome to the podcast great to have you on thanks for being here
oh it's great to be here and appreciate you having me on and yeah had a great time having you on my
podcast recently as well so uh yes pleasure to uh please be here today yeah this is um we're doing we're doing that
podcast swap thing aren't we where what we go on each of the show but i had a blast on your show so i know actually
we're going to have a blast on this one you're a great guy to talk to um so i'm super excited that you're
you're here now uh with us uh recently married um
and still smiling which is fantastic really yes indeed i think i'm just saying to uh
to matt before we hit record that um i've had a bit of a uh yeah a bit of a kind of landing on our scene i think
it's pretty much the day we got back from our honeymoon my wife's a doctor and so it's uh yeah the penny dropped pretty quickly and we uh we settled into
normal life without any any kind of extended honeymoon period after the actual holiday was over so uh
but uh yeah good to be back good to be back and um yeah when you said podcast swap the first thing i thought was you show me
yours i show you mine
and there we go we're off to the happy start and everybody's laughing oh that's brilliant yeah yeah
okay so quickly swiftly moving on for those that are watching by video do not be afraid uh [Laughter]
it's probably the uh is the probably the statement to make now nick we i mean apart from uh just
reminiscing about old days uh we are chatting today about seo how to rank in
google the ultimate tips and i'm excited to have you on the show about this because again i mean you just told me this is years of your life this is
years of learning for you right so you've you're gonna learn i'm guessing a thing or two over that time
yeah i mean it's years of my life i'm not getting back is another way to look at it but yeah it's it's been a mad industry to be
honest we we thought for for years we as in people have been working with
and stuff we thought seo was going to become completely automated that the robots were going to take over quite the
opposites actually happens google now won the best marketing campaigns and we'll come on to more of that um a
little bit later um there's a friend of mine called chloe who also runs a podcast um called e-commerce master plan
yeah yeah she's been on the show as well yeah chloe thompson yeah yeah yeah chloe uh chloe got me to talk at one
point on her podcasts um and i think we did a video thing and webinar as well and we were talking about kind of seo
for non-seo people and there was like scm rush were on the panel um and then two kind of very nerdy seo guys and then
myself and it was a fascinating conversation because they were all sort of saying like oh if we could get more marketing
stuff from nick we could do the technical bit much much better um and i was saying the same like if i could get more technical stuff from you guys we'd
sort of rank better overnight yeah we'll come on to it a bit more but the kind of catch phrase just to keep in mind as
you're listening to this everybody is um yeah it's uh digi marketing has been lost from
digital marketing it's kind of become my catchphrase and i think that's never been more important than when you talk
about seo for sure so marketing has been lost from digital marketing why do you say that
well i'm glad you asked uh but what i figured you wanted me to the way you put it
i did indeed yeah leading question your honor it's deliberately a bit of a controversial statement uh my
personality type is debatable so as we go through if i if sometimes i'll say things i don't even agree with just because i want to have the debate but
yeah i do absolutely agree with this it's with digital there's so much data
available and there's so many systems there's so much content out there that you can read about how to do seo how to
make ppc better how to do paid social better and marketing in essence is convincing somebody to buy something
yeah so regardless of what channel you're on and regardless of what data you're looking at if you've got a good product and you put it in front of the
right people they're going to buy it so we we often
probably done the same over the years matt you kind of define your clients by good client bad client and the root of
it really is how much have they actually nailed it in terms of we've got a good product our customers actually want to
buy because if you have that you can have the worst website in the world you forget about page speed you don't need
to worry that much about keywords and you'll probably sell a lot of products and then if you start factoring those
things in you then start to monopolize the market um so often again seo is so true there are
so many people that have sort of said like oh we've got a better product than our competitors and it's like if you're not marketing it there's no reason to
buy from you um something you mentioned as well matt that i've mentioned a few times in the podcast since you've been on
um is you mentioned about the uh the trust and uh the intent you know your little kind
of axis and the trust and intent i think is so important as well is with seo
they're looking for the keywords you know there's a level of intent you know i want to buy this insurance i want to buy a new pair of trainers i would like
to find a greener energy company to buy my gas and electricity for which really
difficult to do in the uk at the moment um but you're typing that in you have the
intent the trust bits should now be easy it's just look at our look at our reviews look at our prices and come by
um and that that's where i think a lot of companies sort of say like how do we get above our competitors and it's like well you're more expensive your delivery
times slower um you don't there's no reason to buy from you and that's the marketing bit you know we've got to make
it absolutely hate this word but we've got to make it sexy you know it's good yeah i just sound great saying that word yeah
no i think it's a great word and i think you're right i think um the amount of conversations i've had recently where everybody wants to know
the latest silver bullet do you mean the latest thing the latest fad the latest technique that's going to drive them a
thousand followers or whatever it is everyone's talking about that no one's really talking about the fundamental
principles of marketing which is still timeless i.e just be nice to people should i mean all
these kind of things which we we used to have to do years ago when you had to take someone for dinner do you
mean to try and get them to buy your product um and it's these timeless principles of marketing which i i
totally agree i think i just don't see them i see lots of people trying the latest
spinny wheel thing on their website or some ridiculous thing we used to have the spinning wheel oh
did you it was like try and win percent off our services yeah just like when we take a step back we're like
people don't want off they want more customers so then it was just like right new messages you want customers step this
way funny how that works right funny how that works and so no i i get it i i
totally get what you're saying that um the marketing has been taken out of digital marketing and it's time to bring it back because that's the way it's
gonna you're gonna win that's the way you're gonna tell your story in a better way in a more interesting way
so what's that got if i bring it back to seo how do you tie that concept and seo together how do the two things marry up
so i'll give you the way you shouldn't do it well there's elements of in this but the overall principle of
a lot of people go on google and they start looking at what we call keywords they start saying okay i want to be top
of google if somebody looks up i use this example a lot because it's classically niche yet everyone can
understand it vegan leather handbag so you when somebody searches vegan
leather handbag i want to be number one it's nearly and you know
socialism is absolutely taking over across the world and everyone's worried about the planet for good reason so
vegan leather handbag there we go i want to be number one when somebody searches that and there's lots of tools and give you that info and
they then go to their website and go right our website is like this right now and it says what it says and it's
designed in the way it's designed we got these products let's just mention the words vegan leather handbag all over the
place now obviously you can't rank on google if you don't mention the words and the phrases it's completely understandable
but and there is a massive but to this you also need to be compelling
so a lot of people take the approach of just going well let's just mention it a lot um on the pages we've got what you
need to do these days in seo especially in e-commerce and we're talking about e-commerce and obviously i
love and i'm in bed with shopify in more ways than one um you know it's a fantastic platform so i'm using lots of
crude references today you can edit them out um but yeah you talk about shopify ecommerce
for a sec um shopify's volume of stores doubled in three months in yeah
covered here and the number of stores doubled so your competition overnight doubled there's no other way of looking
about this it doubled there are now two stores for everyone so you need to be more competitive so if you then just
mention these words all over the place you're not really going to scratch the itch what you need to do is all the all the old seo stuff about page speed and
tags and code and site structure and hierarchy all of that's really really important but what
you need to work out these days is you need to work out how do we build the perfect experience around our keywords
so about three or four years ago i started turning the word keyword on its head and saying okay they're not really keywords
anymore are they they're actually customer feedback surveys or focus groups or better than that their questions their challenges their
problems yeah so if you're searching for a leather handbag what do we know about that person well we know that they're in
the market for a handbag we know they might have recently broken a handbag they might have gone vegan
you see there's all these different things that can now come into play which actually starts in terms of content on your website what
you want to do to actually optimize the site it starts to become an experience so give another another example of a
client of ours um they were ebay seller of the year for dishwashers and washing machines and ovens and cooker hoods and all this sort
of stuff and we started making buying guides and i'll be honest initially it was like
we just need to make some buying guides don't we because buying guides help us get better on seo but that's very two-dimensional thinking
thinking i hate this phrase outside the box going the extra mile we then started to think what's the
point of the buying guide why are we building when's the customer gonna read this thing and it's like okay a customer
is gonna read the buying guide because they're looking at replacing their oven so if they're looking at replacing their oven what other things are they gonna be
doing okay they're gonna be measuring the space height and width and depth
they're also going to be working out should i get a gas one again or should i go a bit more green and get
electricity even though electricity is three times the price of gas and should we therefore in our buying
guides and the answer is yes start to talk about this stuff should we then actually start to build some blog posts
that are not just our customers love us they come back to read news about washing machines and dishwashers
not what they're coming back for actually our blog post starts to become faqs yeah and it's like how to replace a
gas oven because what you don't want to do is unplug it and gas is then spraying all over the place you've actually got
to turn the gas mains off or find that you know there'll be some sort of shut off nearby shut that off then
disconnect new new gas oven goes in do i then need to get a gas engineering to
remove that pipe so again it's like we've gone the extra mile we're thinking about marketing now this is going to be
a seamless experience just by reading some stuff on our site oh and everything you've just read comes in the installation guide with the oven
so actually then you know the average joe knows a bit about diy can change an oven in their house
um especially if it's electric to electric gas is a bit more complicated but you get the idea it's we're not just
talking loads about cooker hoods or ovens or something on the sides we're actually building content to answer
questions and deal with again not just the keywords but the problems yeah the challenges the issues that the customer
is facing which is why they've gone to google to search that thing that's what google's looking for and obviously if you can sort page being
still at the same time great but yeah i i i i like that because i'm i'm just
thinking about i mean and we mentioned about old school principles of marketing the way i saw this in my head was i used
to take guys um and girls to restaurants and you'd have meals when you were selling particular products or services
yep and i suppose keyword stuffing your page is a bit like finding somebody taking them to the
restaurant and then sitting down and not saying a damn thing to them right just sitting there and just having your
product on the table with a credit card machine just expecting them to buy it right
um but actually what you're doing here is you're addressing issues you're addressing common problems you're being
compelling you're being helpful uh you're making you're building that trust with the the customer and you're
answering any key objections they have you're removing all of those things so so seo then for you is is not just about
keyword stuffing it's about it's about i guess artistry of bringing all of this together would that be a
fair reflection yeah it's you need to build i mean the word really
is experience and it's the same word google have been using in thing called search console
which essentially gives way of feeding back information about seo um they talk about page experience
and you need to build that experience um we had a client recently on the absolute flip side of our white goods client
not open to ideas at all and we had a bit of a challenge with them and spent quite a lot of time educating them on
not how seo worked but actually just how people shop on websites and the challenge we have with those guys is
they they would just have this kind of like two numbers and two letters which would be like mm which means mil
which is actually how far off the ground a high heel would be and i need to be a bit careful because they might be listening to this um but
we we then said but that's not nobody searches well very few people search milliliter um and they didn't even
use the word heal they would then have some word they made up for that product which then meant their products were
exclusively only for people that knew they existed or had bought them before we then actually looked at their by the
way we proved the point that we need more in there we need to say this is a high heel this is a mule uh shoe that
you want to buy to make the point we went on other competitors sites that sold their brand
and harvey nichols did it really really well um when you're on a collection page you get the i you get their image then
you get their their kind of name that mm whatever and then underneath it says
this is a women's gold mule or women's silver heel for example and i know it
sounds a bit keyword stuffy to like put that in but actually we then found out as well later during a focus group that
most customers went on the site i was like i've i'm new to this these are really expensive i can't buy with the
information i'm given i don't even know what kind what type of shoe this is unless i click on the product open it up
and then hover over it and they've got hundreds of products so again some of it's kind of basic
basic math but i think your restaurant example is absolutely right and to use a shop example you walk in a shop and it's
like there's products everywhere and it's just got the price and you can't even really look at the product very maybe they're in that
little glass tanks that have glass on them you can't even see the product properly you've just got a price and as
you say a card machine what you want especially the more luxury the item the more expensive it is the more customer
service needs to come into play you need to be welcomed at the door whether that's with content live chat there's
lots of other things you could do um yeah you need to be welcomed in the door and the question really is how educated do you think these customers
are and traditionally with seo the longer your keyword is tends to be the more educated people so if they're
looking vegan leather handbag they know they know they want it to be it's not just non-leather they want to be vegan
which is very different we want no animal products in this at all but we still want the leather effect so we know
what sort of handbag we're going for plus vegan leather is not cheap um it's i mean you have to go super
luxury but it's it's certainly going to be in the kind of pounds of dollars plus range minimum you know probably a
few hundred and therefore the expectation of the customer is good at that point so if your products are really really cheap
might not be the best thing if your products are like five grand a piece vegan leather handbags probably not the right product for you you probably want
to actually focus on brand lead seo is not going to be so good that's really interesting that's really
interesting so the um so the the holistic approach then to ceo
a ceo there's too many too many three-letter actions so this holistic approach to seo
makes a lot of sense you know and you you're and you're and you're looking for this experience on the page and that in
effect is what you said google was looking for in google search console and so you've talked a bit about how we
can bring that experience by answering questions understanding the customer better understanding what questions they have what objections they have
and and in effect whining and dining them with great customer service
how does google know that we're doing that hmm very good question well sometimes they
don't and that's where that is where the techy old school seo person absolutely
comes into their strength as i mentioned earlier what we would call a good customer they've a good client sorry
they've done all of this work already um
sorry i have had a cough for like eight months since i've covered so apologies if i do cough um
so the first thing google is going to look at is they go to this tiny little file called robots.txt and they have a look
at that and that file tells them you can go here but you can't go here it's a bit like um when you enter a
theme park and you're handed the map and there's little x's on parts of it or little red signs saying staff only in
these areas you can go in all these other places and gives google like a bit of a list of where to go and one of those things
should be a site map google then goes to the site map and finds all of the pages and then the next thing you want to make
sure is when that google actually then starts opening pages and reading pages and crawling them is that the code
translates quite quickly and quite easily so it needs to load quickly the
whole page the page also shouldn't change too much while it's loading that's something that
was rolled out earlier this year called uh it's called cls cumulative layout shift and the idea with cls for example
without getting too nerdy we're recording this on a monday morning by the way and without getting too nerdy
um that means if somebody was about to go and click on something and it then moves
while the page is still loading or off the page that's really really bad because then they might take on the wrong thing
and so you can understand that's all part of what we call ux user experience and so the way the page loads
and then the code needs to be nice and clean and there's several things in that code that google is looking for one of
the most important things that i in my experience i've found this being almost completely neglected or misused
in code is what's called a header tag or a set of header tags yeah and they are numbered and you'll notice
matt from encoding his header one you only want one of those on a page header
one is basically saying to google this whole page is relevant to whatever one two three four five words
you put in that header one and that's normally the big header at the top of the page the one with like you know if you've got a big background image and the header saying um i don't know
push chairs for example for push chairs category of products that's your header one and then the rest of the page is
broken down into sections with what we call header two which is literally hin the code so they work in a hierarchy so
one is everything's relevant to this two then is everything's relevant to this until you get to the next page two and
then you're in the next section next section next section and then if you want to you can also break them down you can use infinite amounts of header tags
but they have to sit within each other so like things people do wrong on sites regularly is if you've got a footer with like four
columns of things mostly links going off to one might be like our delivery and returns information one might be the
about us one might be our top five categories the other one might be our contact information or something i don't
know and sometimes people put little headers on top of those and they use hjust because the styling because
obviously when you use a header tag it's going to look at the style sheet they'll use header for those but then they're not contained within a hso you've
broken the hierarchy and look google's not like completely uptight about this
if you get this wrong they're not going to go well you're completely off the face of google but it clearly shows a
real simple hierarchy and logic to how this page is laid out especially a much better example would
be something like a buying guide so if you had a buying guide or an faq as a blog post um let's go with um
how to how to replace a gas oven right that's the name of the blog post how to replace a gas oven and that's a htag
how to replace a gas oven up at the top with a nice big picture at the back of um an engineer pulling an oven out of somebody's kitchen with tools everywhere
and whatever and obviously plenty of safety gear on obviously and then there's hs breaking
it down um with faqs or something so the first bit was what defines a gas oven or what types of
gas oven are they there's a header tag there's a htag and maybe like a couple of paragraphs underneath then there's
another htag how do you replace one and then there's a hstraight underneath that says step one and then a
paragraph of text step two paragraph text so the way google reads the page is
essentially like that it's going to look at the robot have a look at the sitemap to find all the pages and then when it actually reaches the pages it's
a case of going does the code of this page walk google through the content nicely
and there's also other things that come into play with page speed and stuff um for example things like um
what format you put your images in all that sort of stuff um as well as super important so uh yeah it's there's a lot
more to it than that but that is the basics that's the do those
if i'm listening to the show and i i i'm kind of sitting there listening i get the hierarchy thing it might you know
it's a bit like bullet points isn't it you've got point number one point one eight point one eight eight one i mean
lawyers do it all the time and they and you and i can see the layout structure um like a filed structure in my head
with the hhtakes if i'm if i'm set here listening show you and okay i get that but how do i
know what this how do i see that is there a way to easily see can i tell by
going on my web page for example what the hhtags are and just have a quick look and see the hierarchy
yeah i mean one way is just to right click and view code and type in hhand and just sort of literally just
doing a apple f or um control f for any pc users and literally
just type in hin the code and have a look and see where they are and the other way to do it
is that there are loads of tools that can do what's called crawling a site um screaming frog is one that's an
industry favorite and if you leave it yeah screaming frog seo it's called and
some guys in bristol here in the uk made it and it's it's probably i'll be honest anyone with five years
experience has used it and probably loves it and probably has it in their repertoire um when we interview it is one of our buzz
words in case anybody's attending an interview here in the near future um yeah hearing that people use tools like
that and sem rush sc ranking moz they do a similar sort of thing as well where
you can crawl a page um i completely forgot the name of it but google have recently bought a company um that do
like website audits and they're very simple uh or page audits sorry and it would just pull off the basic
information for you but yeah there's loads of tools or it is just there and all they're doing is just putting up bits of code and going we found the h
and here it is um screaming frog's brilliant because it will look at up to pages on your
site on the free version of it and the other thing we'll do as well is if you've got more than hit calls it a hhyphen
so it will tell you if you've got multiple hs because you shouldn't hshould always be a there's only one and
this is the whole page's content so uh screaming frog check it out and
it'll give you a list of the hierarchy i guess uh you've by going on your logic every page then
has to have a htag doesn't it and because the hhierarchy has to sit under the hso every page has to start
off with a htitle or sorry htag would that be correct
yeah absolutely and one of the first things we look for on any site is like are there any title tags hs meta
descriptions uh meta keywords are any of these things missing present what pages are they on um and normally the first
thing we do any new client is just an actual quick sweep of all of that stuff um which it's important you know you're
just kind of covering off the basics sometimes just by mentioning keywords in titles and mess descriptions we've seen
rankings jump quite considerably um the other thing to think about this as
well which we won't get to this too much today because i could do a whole five hours on this um is how you assign
keywords to pages so if you've come up with a list of like keywords on google that you want to rank for
how how different can two or three different keywords be on a single page and the reason i bring that up when
we're talking about headers is that the title tag of the page the message description and the hand all
the content of that page it should be very very similar so obviously on e-commerce it's quite easy because
collections are the main thing you want to optimize because that's the main place you want people to land because they're not going to know
exactly what products they want you want to show them a range with some nice filters and some maybe what i call sideways buttons you know so when you're
on a collection it says like these are our um orange dresses and there like some buttons at the top saying other popular
colors are pink black and and green you can click on those to go across to those as well as maybe then filtering down by
the type of dress it is all that sizing all that kind of stuff as well but and i think it's also important to make
sure that when we're looking at these things and again screaming frogs great for this make sure your title tag mesh
description hand all the content that page do follow some sort of sequence and
if you try to for example some clients and we've had said no no we want everyone to land on the home page and we're like the home
page cannot talk about in great detail it cannot talk about handbags shoes dresses
and macbooks genuinely had a client that sold both those on the same side and it can't talk about all of this sort of
stuff like if you think about somebody like argos or ao or john lewis um or amazon like what on earth are they gonna
put on their home page like there has to be this kind of distribution of pages and so that's where we start to look at
things like site hierarchy against keywords to say well okay what does the hierarchy the site need to be to give the best again back to the where we
started to give the best marketing experience to a customer who lands on one of these pages and actually if you
did try to fit i don't know different categories of or um different topics of content onto the home page and
if any one of those different users landed there looking for that thing
guarantee a hundred percent of them be completely confused yeah and their spares happen to be the first one yeah
no i like that and so you um so if on e-commerce optimize and then these category pages um
that makes a lot of sense and you and and so a category page then from an seo
point of view um needs to have htag which is going to be i'm guessing your category title
dresses or vegan leather handbags or you know whatever that's going to be um do you have some kind of paragraph
explain explanatory is that the right word explanatory paragraph underneath the h
tag exploratory i don't know like you said it is monday morning
[Laughter] yeah let's let's go holistic for a sec let's take a step back um
we again with so many clients over the years i'm sure you've had this as well matt given your background um
that are like right guys we've optimized our home page now so everyone who lands on the site is going to see this this
and this and then we go in analytics and go okay google shopping everybody from google shopping lands on
a product page you can't land anywhere else from google shopping yeah most people from seo either land on the home
page if they know who you are um or they're coming back or they've heard of the brand that sort of thing or
they land on a page that google deems more relevant so on a good e-commerce
site you'll find that about percent of non-brand seo traffic
lands on collections blog posts some products and faqs
store pages if they're looking for you know tk max edinburgh that kind of thing um so
coming back to your specific question this collection is if it does what we
want it to in seo it is going to be the starting point it is the shop front
of your brand and so we've got to think okay user is typed in vegan leather handbag
and unless it's the only thing you sell they're not going to land on the homepage they're going to land on your vegan leather handbag or your handbags
page which then yeah has a ideally has a small paragraph of text you also don't
want to put too much in that top section because you don't want to lose what what one of our clients calls lift and shift
you don't want the products to be so far down now that you can't see them you do actually just want to go like we're a
great business hey nice to meet you and then they get straight into the products as quickly as possible and so i think
the yeah making sure it's not too big that top section is really really important but equally you've got to think like
this is our shop front so actually that might feel like a deep page a level two level three or say it was a really
really niche collection it could be like a level six so you've got that home page and then you've got like men's then
you've got footwear then you've got smart shoes then you've got brown leather smart shoes you know you kind of
work your way down so then you're in the brown leather smart shoes men's category so it's all the way down there but
that's still a shop front that's why we built it is to create more doors into the site we took a lot an essay about creating more doors and entrance points
to the site and so yeah you've got to think this is this is the first place in your site they're ever going to see so actually
having a little widget on the not widget i hate widgets but having a little link or button on the side saying check out
our men's shoes buying guides um or better than that it's not on the home page sorry it's not on the first page of
google anymore but um i helped put together the tk max when we worked with tkx years ago tk maxx's suit fitting
guide or suit buying guide or whatever it's all about how to measure yourself to buy shirts and suits for blokes and
also we've made one for women as well because women buy a lot of blazers um especially for the workplace and shirts
that kind of thing so we built that and it was on the home the first page of google until about about three months
ago it finally disappeared and it was there for about five years to give an idea of the traffic they were getting from there um
but yeah like that's an example of where somebody's gonna land that is the first place you'll ever see so yeah if you land on a category of products having a
link out to the buying guide for the ones who don't know what they want to buy yet and make sure that buying guide has lots of what we call internal links
so every time not every time but most times you mention um i don't know brown leather shoes or something make that bit
of text a link so they can get straight into that collection so as soon as i get to the point in a buying guide or a blog post or an faq post of like okay these
guys yeah the these are the hinges i need for my garden gate and that's why i'm on google today genuine client
um they you know there's a link through to that category of hinges that they can and they know what size to get as well
because they've just read that in the blog post and we've actually looking at google analytics we've seen people going from
buying guides and blog posts clicking back and forth to different places because it's like oh yeah i definitely
want one of those click on it and then and then they get onto one it's like what size would you like it's like i haven't got a clue right back back to
the buying guide like scroll down to the size bit oh i need that size right forward forward forward and then get back in and choose the right size and
you know get the tape measure out all this kind of stuff but you've got to remember like any landing page for seo if you want
this page to rank it is going to be a welcome page so if you just have like handbags
and then a list of handbags you've already lost them like there's nothing to go on they are currently
sitting in that restaurant not being spoken to by their dates for the evening which is yeah you're not going to see
them again and you're certainly not going to want to pay for the meal
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one of the things that i i love to do on people's websites when we look at them is we do go straight to analytics and we
go right where are the people going to where is where is google sending people to let's start with those pages what are
your most popular pages yes you've got your home page but let's take that out of the equation in some respects
where are people heading to and then we're like well let's just go to that page as a as somebody who's never been
to this site before and let's just see what we think i mean let's let's just have a little look what what kind of experience are we
going to have here i think they're great questions and i think that's actually such a valuable thing to do
um and and just knock them out it's like okay well this is you'll be surprised actually the the
pages that google recommends and sends people to um and
start with the most popular one look at it fix it move on to the next one right yeah definitely definitely i think
another um another really interesting point to make on this in terms of like yeah looking at analytics and
asking questions is um i loved your intent um i mentioned it already intent and trust um
can somebody make a buying decision off the back of this i think it's always such a valid question yeah and
i asked a client the other day they were like why is no one buying our stuff and i i said all right let me screen share and i said okay
if you if you were going to buy one of these tables what would you type in they're like i don't know um oak effects
dining table and then we typed it in and then pretended we had clicked on their site it wasn't on the first page yet but
tenure me clicks on their site and open up that page i'm like okay now what you're doing and they instantly
were just client mode you know like oh but i know i'm now gonna go and read the buying guide quickly i'm just gonna chuck it in my car i'm like no no you've
never been here before so this is the welcome page and it just says and it just says
oak effect dining tables and there's a load of oak effects dining tables what size do you want what color do you
want how quickly do you need it what's our delivery information it's a huge item how much is going to cost to get
this thing delivered what if i don't like it i mean we've all i had one a few weeks ago where i ordered a new desk and
i thought it was flat-packed and it wasn't i couldn't even get it in the house and it's it stayed under a tarpaulin for the night in the garden
wow and the next day a storm was on its way and i eventually got the uh retailer to come and pick it up for me um because
they had lied i had an email for them saying yeah everything this this item will be flat-packed and oh sorry we sent
we sent you one that had already been assembled i'm like you need to flip and tell me that i couldn't get it in the house and the only did they assemble it
they glued it together oh well don't do some screws so there's me like terrible customer experience absolutely terrible
they refunded me and gave me a pound voucher which i gave to my mum because she's got a bigger front door on their
house than i've got and but there's that the other thing as well is don't don't be scared to go too
obvious sometimes so like if you're nike and you're selling obviously lots and lots of nike
stuff they know like sell trainers don't be scared on the trainer page to say nike a global leader in trainers
because actually that's what customers want to hear they want to know i'm in the the trainer place i'm going to start
my journey here um we used to play a game which i played it recently it's
great fun it works really well with marketing agencies okay and the game is you send a link out to your team on
slack and you say start the clock what do they do and people have to
they don't have to do it instantly but when they're ready they start a timer on their phone or watch or something
and then they have to keep messaging the person who shared the link saying what they think this company does
and the game is how quickly can you work out what they do and it's classic with marketing agencies because a lot of them
say like we are the revolution we're the next best thing we're better than sliced bread uh we build customer experiences
that astound you and it's like what do you do okay you're you're a video production agency i get
it now or you build websites and some people have gone so fluffy and so far out
it's like i had it on a diy site recently i was looking for a spare part for something i
can't remember what it was like maybe it's like a washing machine or something looking for a spare part for something
and end up on this site it was like i am so lost i have no idea what part i need so my next search query was like um
washing machine drum part finder and i landed on a different retail site with a box it just said what
is the id number of your product type that in and it just categorized all their products beautifully on the page
for me so simple and google watches that and goes right somebody searched for this
part they clicked on three sites and bounced off them straight away they then changed their search query to part
finder and didn't come back and we can see in google analytics that that customer then bought something from that
site and actually they bought that thing within two minutes of clicking on the link and this is quite a complicated
part this site deserves to be at number one if somebody ever searches for those parts again yeah and so even if they had
a blog post saying like yeah we sell these or we had the parts themselves and i was confused even having a big button
saying part finder search with your id your model number of machine or whatever
just genius i mean so but it's so simple it's the same as walking into your local shop like remember euronyx i think they
were called the electric shop in the uk yeah yeah blue and white branding and yellow back when we were in the eu and you could
walk in and you could literally just say to the person like all right i've bought in my vhs player and every time i put a
video in it's screaming they're like oh we'll just take some screws off and have a look you need one of these sir would you like us to fit it for you it'll be
done within minutes yes i would and pounds i'll go and grab a coffee
pounds later in a coffee later i've got a perfect working vhs machine just genius i mean
to to blow their trumpet a little bit we buy all of our apple equipment now from curry's pc world because their support
online and ordering process online is so slick um it could be a little bit better but
you can speak to somebody on video and they can't see you but you can see them yeah and you can ask them questions i've got a new video editor to join in the
business um they need to edit videos okay they're working in k yes they will be right this is the minimum spec apple
mac machine that you need i'm linking you to it now click on this link and they stay on video while you're loading the page there on there and then they're
like right if you i can see exactly what you're looking at if you scroll down you see these bits here it also comes with a free keyboard and mouse as well and it
was just brilliant and if you have any problems you can take a machine to them they also if they can't fix it within
hours they send you a replacement apple won't do that apple will say right it's a four or five week wait to see
someone then once you've seen them they'll book in a repair so you don't have to go back to the shop three four five weeks later like this is a
pound machine i do not want to be waiting nine to ten weeks to have someone repair this thing if it breaks i
need another one in hours or like today if possible um so yeah again just
marketing it's good marketing it's interesting what our customers yeah it's interesting you've pulled out
curries over apple uh experiencing that you mentioned a great website we shot
the product on apple which would never buy direct absolutely never to be fair i i have a slightly different
experience with apple i have um i have now got a business
i don't even know what it is an account with them um okay i i don't even go on the website anymore i just email this
guy and everything's done by email uh and he's called can i have his email please yeah yeah he's awesome to meet
dave dave's awesome dave this is what i want and he goes yeah no problem or he'll call me and he'll answer any
questions or i can call him direct yeah and then he just sends me an invoice so bringing that back to seo for a sec
again thinking about customers and experience if you could then show that experience on your site
so if somebody's looking at an expensive piece of kit like a i don't know an it system or a computer or something then
being able to say and what's our customer support well it's repair or replace within hours dedicated account manager if you
work with rit company and not only that you can have a call with them within one hour of filling out
this form below yeah you know it's that kind of thing we will assign you an account manager before you've even
bought anything fill out this form within one working hour an account manager will be in contact about your account and we've just signed our
business up for vitality health insurance and yeah partly because i hate i hate the government at the moment
trying to avoid tax um but vitality are great um nick it's fine
before rishi knocks on my door and asked me for some more money um but yeah the good thing that the good
thing that um vitality did is i filled out a form on their website and they just had eight bullet points i glanced
at it but it was good yeah that's what i want for my business right fill out the form and within one hour someone emailed me going hey i'm your account manager
here um when are you free to chat um in advance i'll need the date of birth of each of your staff members any other
details right now and i can tell you how the scheme works um within two days we had a quote from them and the guy even
then said we're going to run an offer next month so don't sign up yet wait till next month we've got an offer coming out yeah so like there's one
thing like running an offer on your site and going there's an offer there's another thing actually teeing people up going we're going into sale next week
yes you might lose a lot of revenue this week from customers not buying but you are you know front and center and point
of focus next week and actually something retailers do and yeah check
the laws in your country on this because they do vary some retailers increase their prices coming up towards black
friday and sale season and stuff again it's marketing that is basic marketing
how to how to get good value across to a customer you don't have to be the cheapest you don't have to offer next
day free delivery like amazon which i mean you feel about amazon for example it's not free is it you have to sign up
to prime yeah which costs like quid a year or something it's definitely not free yeah yeah it is not free so
when they say free delivery the actual small print at the bottom of the page if you have a look actually says we will
not charge anything in addition for this delivery that's the asterix on the free delivery so get
again basic marketing have a think about what makes your customers tick do they need deals do you even want to offer
deals because that is it going to become a race to the bottom what are your competitors offering at the moment that you're not um we've got an insurance
company at point blank said to us about some of the insurance they offer they said we are not the cheapest in the market we've got the worst online quotes
journey out there this is going to be tough to sell but once we've got a customer they stay with us for up to
years so we then say well they are cost per acquisition of new customer can be really really high
because we know we'll make our money over the years and we just again expectation everyone was set up for that and then over time we built out okay
where can we get more competitive all right well let's just release a magazine and say you get
unlimited access to our pound a month magazine if you take out insurance with us and guess what average policy costs
less than quid a month but we're still more expensive than everybody else but you get a music magazine subscription for free so
they've now got people subscribing to the magazine at pounds a month and then they've got all these customers buying insurance at pounds or less
per month for um musical instruments and they get the magazine for free again it's just marketing it's just basic clever
providing value it's it's not it's clever but it's not rocket science is it no
and what you've i mean you know the last odd minutes we've been chatting about this what you've done
i'm just thinking over our conversation what you've done is you have linked
um seo to customer experience inextricably you can't separate these two things and i think that seems to be
the overriding message of today is actually a lot of seo is focusing on a good experience on the pages that are
starting to rank for you in google which you can do through um you know
various different things from keyword research to create a good customer experience on your page
what are um what are some of this tools some of the platforms if i want to
be able to do this stuff well because i i'm just thinking about like i mean you're you're an
expert in shopify for example does shopify allow you to do all of what you've said because there
are let's be real there are platforms out there where you definitely cannot do all that you said
um so is this stuff that can actually be put into practice
by people who just run simple shopify sites yeah definitely it absolutely can i'm
not gonna beat around the bush though seo is it it generally is very complicated there are a lot of elements
to it um in fact with chloe at e-commerce mastermind i did an seo myths
uh slide deck at one point and i think i can't reach number it was but one of them was um seo yeah we've done that
um or seo is our best channel and it's like seo is not as you say it's not a channel it's so interlinked with
everything else which is why it's called organic it's a bit like saying oh our brand awareness channel and you're like no your channel was like advertising or
traffic from social media or traffic from a search engine whereas seo is is so much more to it and
yeah there's there's a lot of debates in the industry about shopify um in the seo industry um if you go on twitter and
just search like shopify seo i'm not a twitter user but i have been linked to many many debates on twitter by other
people going nick are we making a mistake moving this new client to shopify plus like there's a big thread
here moaning that we can't even touch the robots.txt shopify is fantastic in the sense that
they had a hundred percent uptime over black friday and cyber
weekend last year in the uk no magento store in the world had a
uptime and i'm willing to bet five pounds on it maybe um but
see you get stuff like that there are files on shopify that you can't touch though
and that that's where the debate comes in some seo guys are like no i want to change that some things on shopify like
page speeds have been highlighted as quite a major problem now i forget where he's come from but
there's a chap who's just been hired by shopify in the last few months as their global seo director and his job is to i
think it's a he apologies if it's not um but his job is to um bring about better
seo and the first thing they're looking at is page speed now we've got some clients on shopify plus where we've managed to get mobile
page speed up to about to out of so it can be done but it's not been
simple other platforms that are a bit more what you call open source like magento where you can go in and do more
we've got even worse page speed because actually fixing it is even more complicated because you do have access to the server
and you can change stuff it's like where do you stop the tweaking one client we finally got page speed up
to out of on mobile is like the bare minimum you want to get and google's got a free page to be told if
you want to check stuff like that and page is a good example of all of this as well and the reason i'm using it is because it's very measurable how quick
does the page load and what's the score and the scope the two are interlinked but the score is not purely based on
speed it's also like i mentioned earlier with cls it's based on does the page change while it's loading you know if
they if the images take a little while to load they're not going to mark you down that much i mean internet connection is getting faster the big
thing they are going to mark you down for is if there's an image above the fold that takes more than four seconds and let's be honest four seconds is a
lifetime in this digital age at the moment especially waiting for a single page to load um you know if you're
trying to browse around sort of products on your mobile phone most you know most revenue is through mobile
phones these days especially in consumers it is important so
there's two types of tool one is the actual platform so the shopify the magento the hybris wordpress with
woocommerce etc that's one side of things and if almost everything is achievable in almost all
of them so i wouldn't make a platform decision based on that i normally make a platform decision or recommendation to a
client based on what they can and can't do internally and what their budgets look like the lower the budget and the
less you can do internally the more you want to lean towards something like shopify um or something like magento
where it's complete or wordpress and woocommerce where it's completely hosted so you like click a button and you've got your you've got your whole set up
there and now the web guys can design something on top and the more budget you've got i wouldn't
necessarily even go towards something like hybris i would use something like hybris which is like i mean we launched the million pound
build on hybris once it was chronic um partly because it had gone wrong that
wasn't like they didn't get our bed one day ago let's just put million quid into this it was one with a one million pound backups big old big old company
were doing this million pounds later the thing was actually turned on um the reason we went to hybris is the volume
of everything the rate in which their product range was changing they could one day they could have a million
products on the site and the next day have less than a hundred thousand the next day have two million so like it was just crazy a bit like
sites like groupon and stuff that's what i would make your um platform um choice on so we've moved people away
from hybris where it's like they just can't even build a page they've got no internal uh capability to do it they've
fallen out with the agency okay fine let's just get shopify and we can just start building new pages and blog posts and faqs and the experience we just
start building it quickly and the default templates and stuff they look good already we could just color them and we're away and we'll be away for
grand instead of million quid um so yeah i think that's one side of the
tools the other side then is the seo tools and the tools are only ever as good as the
person wielding them and that needs to be completely remembered all the way through there
as much as we're in the digital world there are humans being humans doing stuff and breaking stuff
and but also doing the marketing bit really really well the marketing bits a bit i don't think machines are going to
take over any time soon maybe one day but in terms of going like look we're selling cars here why do someone buy a
car okay they don't buy it really because of the features of the car the bike because the benefits it's fast it
makes you feel good it warms up on its own it's good for the planet so you're going to feel better about yourself you know that's why
someone's buying a car let's focus on that side of things marketing so tools like sc ranking sem rush
um what some of the others ahrefs mods they've all got slightly different strengths but they've all got in my
opinion major weaknesses and we use at least two on that list um
at the moment for most clients and scm rush is an example of a tool and we had
it with one client it was a group of companies so they've got different sites and the footer has this little
carousel that's just kind of slowly moving along with just different logos in it for all the different sites
sem rush told us that they are toxic backlinks and if we remove them we are guaranteed use the word guaranteed to
rank better so i called up semrush and said why is it recommending this um you know we've
got house insurance here and we've got car insurance and two are interlinked it's the same customer it's the same
group of companies that is our best link by a what we say in the uk a country mile which means by
a very long way and scn rush is telling us to remove them
they are definitely not toxic and their response was oh you could just click this button and then it's not a problem
anymore which doesn't really scratch the itch does it the point really feels giving us
yeah the tool's given us the wrong advice and we've got proof on that so the tools are only as good as the person
wielding them so i think in my experience it's always good to have somebody who just knows seo and
understands your business and most importantly above all of that you actually genuinely mean this you
have a good working relationship with yeah and we talk in our business there um we call that we call communication
the queen bee we need to protect communication at all costs because as soon as we've got bad comms with the client right get on the phone let's
clear the air guys this is not working well you're not communicating enough with us things are not getting done quick enough how can we resolve this how
can we sort this out as we as we said over the last kind of minutes
there are a lot of different parts to seo so if content's not being written quickly enough if email campaigns aren't going out quick enough to get that
second third fourth order to build actual revenue volume and profit out of customers then it all starts to fall
apart if social media is not doing its thing if news articles aren't being posted quickly enough if links aren't being built um you know being built
quick enough the whole thing falls apart so communication is absolutely key and then you bring the tools into play to
say right do we want something like sem rush which is a bit more of an all-in-one plug-and-play tool or do you want something a bit more like screaming
frog where you click a button that gives you a spreadsheet of your website and you have to do the rest so screaming
frog doesn't really tell you what's good and bad sc rankin and sem ration moz they will
tell you what's good and bad but you need to absolutely understand what those things are
and we had a client recently who they came to us and said our rankings are plummeted and we said okay what have you done recently and they were sort of
listing stuff off and they suddenly mentioned a disavow report and that normally is like you know the
warning symbol is going off like a nuclear bomb is going to drop any second now um disavow report what did you put in that
and they said well we just downl rush told us to we just downloaded it don't get me wrong i love sem rush at all but
you just need to know how to use it this disavow report had completely killed
about four or five years of good seo performance dead and what's worse you can't just click an
undo button you can't say to google i'll just send us the undo that we don't want to submit the report anymore this of our
report is a report that says we've tried to remove all of these links that link to our site and we can't so please don't
take them into account anymore with our seo i haven't submitted one for about seven years
and the date they submit to this report um there was about three or four days where it was dropping and then it just stayed flat after that and their traffic
now is only brand and some of the stuff they put in the disavow report was an article that mentions them but it
doesn't link to them and we were like hang on a minute this is still gold it's still brand awareness
yeah and so they've lost yeah really what we call high value sites like the bbc in the uk is the uh that is the
absolute kind of top of the mountain that is the diamond you want if you can get a link from the bbc to your side
rankings will improve quickly the bbc hold a lot of power in the uk when it comes to seo because they've got a good
site and people trust them and when they talk about stuff they mean it and people listen and people believe it um the most
trustworthy news source in the uk um unless you know anything about um
news in the uk but apart from that when seo point of view people trust them so when it comes to tools get your
strategy right first talk to an expert know what you're going to do and then find the tools to and this is the really
key thing with tools to speed up the tasks you want done so if you can build content quicker and roll it out quicker
on shopify get shopify if you can't get the technical bit to work on shopify but you need to roll out content quicker stick
with something like magento or hybris but find a new tool or a new plugin or some sort of um i don't know shogun page
builder for example works with magento so you can build nice blog posts or magento suddenly and you can roll them
out quickly and you can duplicate them so you've got the template ready just change the text on it so you can duplicate your best ever buying guide
and then make five more buying guides it's a very logical way of doing things so use the tools to speed up jobs yeah
and so speed up like where are our links right now what's going on with this crawling a site you're not going to go through the code manually pages
are you you're going to use screaming frog to crawl it and then use a spreadsheet some formulas and color coding to go where are we missing stuff
where is stuff not keyword focused etc that's really good uh nick i feel like
um you mentioned talking about five hours about a topic earlier on i feel like uh we are just starting to uh
scratch the itch as they say and we are indeed but i'm aware of time and so uh if people want to reach out to
you if people want to connect what is the best way for them to do that yeah we've got three resources depending
on what you fancy um and uh and what your needs and the first one is winning
with shopify podcast and we go and going into the episode we did with matt a few weeks ago as well great fun um yeah
winning with shopify and we're also on alexa now which i found a few days ago oh wow oh well done asking alexa to play
the winning show for podcast and lo and behold my voice was then echoing across the office and someone said you listening to your own voice there's like
no no just chicken yeah winning with shopify podcast we're on apple podcasts we're on alexa spotify
all that kind of stuff and depending on size of business depends on the next two and if you're a small shopify store and
you're starting out and you want to kind of get cracking and get some stuff done but you don't have an agency budget yet or a big bunch of agencies check out
justaskparker.com and that's a business that's part of the spec family now um and spec is our main company so just ask
parkers for your kind of startup shopify store we do everything from social email and we build sites only shopify
obviously and we do a whole lot of stuff on there we've got a great team and my colleague byron's free to chat to anyone who needs um any help and also if you're
a bit more established and you're sort of scaling and growing um we also do ppc which for shop shopping customers is
always going to be google shopping um so yeah reach out to spec which is spec dot digital which i always get then asked if
it's dot com or anything it's not this is dot digital um it is the future yeah yeah absolutely we
will of course uh put all of the links that you have mentioned in the show notes as well so you can get them if you
uh subscribe to the website and the emails they will come through to your inbox uh nick thank you so much for
coming on bud and taking the time to talk to us i can't help but feel you will be back again soon as i as there
are lots of conversations that we can continue to have uh just across the board of e-commerce and
because you're a fellow brit i'm not against obviously anybody from another country we love talking to the
international uh friends but um but it's always nice to talk to a brick we do
absolutely cool well thanks so much for having me today it's been uh yeah it's been great to be on the show and um just for everybody else's benefit i've
canceled i think at least once maybe twice so far so uh yeah it's good to finally nail down the time and be here
so yeah appreciate you having me on thanks nick so what did you think a huge huge thank
you to my very special guest nick today i love talking with nick always loved talking to fellow brits uh he's he's
such a cool dude isn't he and so make sure you check out his podcast if you're on shopify of course you can get all of
the links to nick to the notes and to the transcript from today's show uh at our website ecommercepodcast.net
forward slash this is episode number can you believe we're on episode already
that's just unbelievable anyway that's how you get a hold of all of this stuff ecommercepodcast.net forward slash
and if that's not enough next week i've got another amazing guest
david mourinho and i ask him everything about influencer marketing why you
should be using micro influencer marketing and how to do it properly yes we are
going to get into that here's an excerpt from next week's conversation
that's a good question i mean to be fair you're going to drive sales right it can be a profitable sales channel depending
on your product and kind of the resonance you're able to build um and then after that the other kind of
plus values are you get content on a consistent basis give that to your social media manager or team or give
that to your paid media manager or team and just you can feed them consistently
good content that they can just rehash repurpose and boom redistribute everywhere all the time
i'm looking forward to this one oh yes now if you've enjoyed this week's
podcast then i would totally appreciate it if you could rate the show on itunes or wherever you get your podcast from
and even share it out with the world so that we can connect with more folks that would be absolutely
amazing as we like to say in my house as i said at the start all of the notes links and transcripts from today's
podcast are online you can get them for free at ecommercepodcast.net forward slash
do go check it out you can get it for free you don't need an email address or any that sort of nonsense just going to enjoy it that's all from me so thanks
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would love to hear from you uh but until next week that's it from me bye for now
you've been listening to the ecommerce podcast with matt edmondson join us next time for more interviews
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