Understanding Growth Hacking for Your Business

welcome to another Facebook live curiosity podcast with me your host Matt
Edmondson we are back yes we are and we've got a treat for you tonight we're
going to talk to an amazing chap called chris chris raven who is well he
describes himself as a consultant chief marketing officer which is such a cool
title to have I wish I had that myself if I'm honest with you anyway we are going to get chatting to Chris we are
going to get into marketing marketing from e-commerce actually how do you get
the stuff done I mean how do we execute that's a big question right that's gonna
be what we're going to talk about in tonight's show the curiosity podcast is a show dedicated to all of us who are in
the e-commerce business who are looking to build and grow our own online
businesses and take them to the next level if this is your first time with us it is great to see you welcome to the
show it's great that you're here you can of course post questions or comments as we go along and Chris will hopefully at
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aside let me hit this button here and Chris you are now live on screen Chris
it is great to have you thanks for joining us on the show good evening thank you for me oh no it's great that
you're here and oh hang on there we go sorry I just for whatever reason I just
muted you and I don't know why no problem well good evening again and
thank you very much it's great apparently I'm supposed to be a professor this you would never actually know oh my
profession that I would be here Corrine's does come hey Kareem it is great to see you Karina's just come on
and commented that the curious comm link is not working that Kareem the answers that is because it's not curious calm it
is curious dot digital and and if that's not working try curious dot either of
those will work but it's great to see you hope you doing well and careens level ish is in the states and she runs
a business Chris that does stencils for crafting and she's she's just like
thanks are you're welcome great to have you Queen okay Chris let's jump into it
so you are a consultant chief marketing officer what does that mean I mean what
does it actually mean so I spent a lot of years doing lots of different things in the marketing world and the
e-commerce world and in the product kind of management world so I've got a very
broad experience that positions me as a bit of a specialist generalist which is not see [ __ ] but it sort of works in
today's times what what it means is that I've got a good background to go into
lots of different clients and lots of different verticals and talk to them about how they should be approaching
their marketing from a very very holistic perspective so I'm not talking about a single channel I'm not talking
about a single marketing piece that they want to do or a single piece of content that they want to write what I'm doing
is getting back into them and saying what what are you actually trying to achieve what are your commercial goals how do we
wrap that into something that is a very strategic piece looking at every part of your business because really marketing
isn't an isolated discipline anymore marketing needs to touch lots of different parts and components of
people's businesses so it's there what I'm hopefully going to talk to you tonight is it's something that people
should be able to see applies really whether it's an e-commerce business whether it's pure play whether it's
bricks and mortar e-commerce whether it's bb bc SAS platforms service-based
it doesn't really matter it's it's a process that I'm going to show you how to apply to basically understand
how to get to where you want to be from those commercial goals how to prioritize tasks how to weave together multiple
agency stakeholders in geographical territories that are diversity you know
it applies to lots of different contexts so hopefully that that explains it a
little bit I'm not gonna lie it sounds a bit full on its warm up it is but do you
enjoy it I mean do you I mean we've talked off-camera and what it is I know
you enjoy it's a trick question you you talk about it with such passion you get a big buzz out of the whole thing right
absolutely absolutely I think you know this is where the fun lies in going and
really helping businesses grow and I am sort of agnostic about what those businesses might be I like to choose
businesses that have an ethical stance and I like to choose people that are approaching sustainability and actually
they're often the ones that are hardest to help sometimes because they've got a
really challenging environment so they've got a really challenging kind of saturated market or something like that but I like getting into the detail and
understanding explicitly what needs fixing if things need fixing maybe it's
not a fix maybe it's just a starting point and an understanding of how to
prioritize effort to get the best possible reward which is I think what
most business owners are trying to achieve anyway generally but I can help them
frame that and I think there's two angles right one is an agency angle so if they're already working with an
agency maybe that agency needs a little bit of levelling up to kind of remove the marketing myopia they might have got
blinkered in-house teams definitely get set in their ways a little bit even if
they don't then they get quite subtle visions and I yeah and and what I found
is I I mean I do a bit of the coaching and consulting but I do have more from the e-commerce side of things and what I
found is and I don't know if you found the same thing Chris when you go and see a client what you talk about with the
team is not rocket science it's not really anything that's insanely
new and stuff they've not heard before it's just that we get so hunkered down in our way of doing things that actually
somebody coming in and helping us take a step back thinking about the basics actually that makes a big difference
it's objectivity for sure so and up being a consultant CMO lends itself well
to asking the questions that internal teams might not want to ask it's so
agility to ask the really awkward questions right yeah you do pay you for
that I mean that's that's why I feel like that's why I should get paid
there's no point in me going and telling people what they want to hear there's no
people are trying to grow a business if I can spot something that's holding them
back from growing that business I need to find a way of communicating to that you know to them and that's that's about
framing positioning and asking the right questions so yeah yeah absolutely and I think to your point of how much stuff
there is to do and people getting tunnel visioned there's an element there of overwhelm if you and I think you'll see
that in some of the stuff that I'm I'm gonna show you so no it's not rocket science um I'm definitely definitely
using tools that already exist I am NOT reinventing the wheel but what I am able to do is through experience and general
kind of knowledge and marketing explain as' is help people leapfrog some of the
some of that process so where they might independently have got to the same point but it might have taken quite a few
months or quite a few years yeah I can definitely help them kind of streamline that significantly fantastic now this is
to jump the gun a little bit this is your framework isn't it this is what
we're going to talk to or talk through tonight and this is actually if you're listening to the audio podcast one of
the things I want to encourage you to do is also check out the video of the podcast because for the first time
tonight subject to technology actually we're gonna do a screen share and you're
gonna walk us through the podcast now if you are listening on the audio podcast we'll explain stuff as we're going along
and hopefully ask all the right questions and but Chris Shoei I'm super
psyched should we just jump to get into that and see how it ends up jump it and hopefully and the things that I stay
around the slides will make it not necessarily critical to be looking at the slides it's still going to make
sense I think absolutely slides are now on the screen okay so you can you know
scratch your head and pick your nose no no no it'll be fun seems risky so I may I may not do that
okay so this first slide really it just tries to frame the objective of why why
I go in and talk to people and this is um it's about reducing friction
essentially and a lot of times I go into a client and they are doing a lot of
stuff they're doing a lot of marketing efforts a lot of tactical activity but it's perhaps disjointed they've got
different teams they're not talking to each other you know I've certainly been in quite large series a series BCC
startups where they are they have a global presence already and they've maybe got a team doing design in one
geographical territory a team doing social media and another geographical territory five PR agencies all working
independently with a freelancer managing them you know it's that kind of context and that's actually true also if I've
seen the same thing with startups right so if you're a startup you may be thinking well that doesn't apply to me but it does because so many people
series despite so many people on startups are like using Fiverr or all
these different services where they've got people in all different parts the world doing various things for them and then they're they're not connected
either right absolutely I think so some of the comic
one of the common tools that I'll talk about later is Trello right and you don't have to use Trello you can use many different versions of project
management software well I'm I'm more interesting things in the Kanban jumping to give a little a little bit but
essentially the whole process is geared towards being completely ambivalent
about what your structure is if you've got if you've got this process in place it doesn't matter if you've got
a very very structured in-house team or if you've got incredibly disparate resources from people per hour
freelancers you make doing this bit you're you know hardcore PR agency doing another bit or people in different
countries it it lends itself to connecting all that together and that's that's one of the critical reasons
actually why why this works and why I why I've helped myself grow and evolve
it yeah so so it's really about that connectivity at its heart actually and
the tactical activity is it's almost secondary to that and the overarching strategy is the purpose but yeah
connectivity you've touched on it extremely so like should I jump into kind of the stages that I would go
through yeah yeah let's do that
let me see if I can move on so hopefully you can see a slide on screen that says the process there's sort of loosely five
steps I mean it's not always this cut and dry there might be some preliminary discussions a little mini audit
something like that you know how it is when you you're talking to people and you try to develop a relationship and develop a rapport there's never a point
where you just jump in and start doing stuff there's always a conversation but ultimately there's a point which we need
to ask really really kind of deep questions and and a real combination of
kind of broad and detail-oriented questions about the business well then
go in and do some kind of audit but is pre deep and very specific to different
channels and bracelets or marketing activities and content that's been produced and supply chain and such as
cetera we'll go through that I then translate that audit into some kind of
task structure and I have a I have a framework for that I mean it's on a
Google Doc you'll see it there's no crazy tech here this is this is the link
between the audit and the tasks is where the value is that I add I think blog predominantly because it's it's
essentially that leapfrogging process and understanding how to prioritize with that the fourth stage is
translating that kind of document of tasks into a prioritized sprint plan and
I call myself the agile CMO because what I'm trying to embed is that sort of
developer II agile sprint process but it's not stringent it's more about look
if you if you need to prioritize tasks there has to be some kind of time frame associated to that and we can help you
choose what that timeframe means but it gives focus to when things should be done by and how they should be done and
then the episodes a should you've mentioned Kanban you've mentioned the word sprint and you've mentioned the
word agile now I actually I'm going to sound a bit pompous I know what they mean a job but not not everybody does
can you just give us a like a -second overview of what what they would that all is sure so it sort of originates
from web development if you like or coding or software development and it
sort of puts into context a process where you build something without
necessarily defining every part of it right at the beginning so if you if you had a plan right at the beginning you
said okay on a hundred features and I want to know exactly how much that costs and how long it takes that's one way of
doing a project another way is to say what's our Minimum Viable Product to get
this going what do we need for that okay probably ten features and that's gonna take way less time so let's do that and
maybe we can do that over the course of two weeks or a month and in the course of that two weeks or a month we'll go
through and we'll say okay what's worked at the end of it like a retrospective view what's worked has has this been
successful has this delivered what we wanted yes No how do we change that how do we evolve an iterative and the
sprints are the Sprint is how long your efforts a period is so maybe you go okay
every two weeks is our sprint time and you do whatever you can get done in that sprint and it's not planned to the nth
degree it's very fluid it's very flexible in the development word world
allows for kind of you know scope changes with being a an awful process to kind of go
back and revisit the original projects and say well have sunk a load of cost and opportunity into there and now the Scopes completely changed yeah in
reality you couldn't possibly plan a marketing project like that because you
need to a/b test you do need to you need to understand what's changed in the market conditions and you turn the choke
understand what's changing in the competitor landscape there's so many variables to that kind of marketing
activity which is why this this in invert speech box agile process makes sense for it but but
the it should become obvious when I when I show the the princess now I appreciate
you taking the time and I I'm I'm the worst person for this you know where you just you're talking away and you throw
stuff out there and people you just assume actually all people know what
that is but I think like you say sprint agile Kanban these are words I think if
you're if you've been around e-commerce for a while if you've been around the web agencies seem for a while you would have heard them you'll know what they
are if you're new to e-commerce you will definitely become familiar with them but yeah they are they're great ways to
develop sites anyway I interrupted you sorry that's point number four we go so
we go from Kanban to yeah no no you're absolutely right anything that I say
that if I use an acronym or or spin something up just yeah please do interrupt and ask me to explain it
yeah the fifth thing is just basically evolving the iterating so asking how can
it be better how can we be more transformative and I've kind of got an example of what that that might look
like okay so if I kind of dive into a little bit more detail of the first
stage which is the kind of questions that I want to be asking clients and
really fundamentally what I'm sorry establishes what value they're trying to
provide to their audience so I'm asking them things like why are they doing what
they're doing and what are they doing it for who is it for and who are they actually trying to change so these are
these are pretty critical aspects to to underpin that that value
proposition if you like it and it's not just purely related to that kind of marketing speak of vision and mission
statements and value proposition its it's really more Christie than that it's really about actually these are some of
the most difficult questions for some clients because they might on a journey really hard to answer these questions
like you know why are you doing this what's the reason what's the purpose and actually if it's just to make money
you've got to be honest with that at the start right I didn't you 'only have but
for most people there's usually something more to it than that and digging in and finding that out is actually it's a head rake but the value
of doing that completely is unbelievable as I'm sure you've found out right absolutely and and that's why that's the
first part because until I understand that until they understand that actually
there's no way to steer how you write your content or what channels you focus
on or what your what audience personas you should be trying to target in
segments I mean it literally affects and such as every part of the overall strategy and touches most of the
tactical activities so I think is it and I'll definitely say that in my
experience a lot of senior marketers don't don't approach it from this this angle they go straight into channel
activity associated to commercial goals which is fine that that does work as
well but it works in a different way and I think you've fundamentally got to
start right with these basic questions and its interest in how you've tied that in with marketing that actually
marketing starts when you ask these very basic questions why what's it for who's
it for who are you trying to change and spending that time getting that information now well worth it brilliant
sorry carry on Chris totally totally so I think you know then to follow up questions a lot more detail orientated
so what are your objectives and and they could be commercial objectives for the like GEB revenue goals do you have timber
generic goals do you have cost per acquisition goals or actually what's
your exit strategy because um if somebody is running a lifestyle business
the approach to the overall marketing strategy in a kind of longer term view
is going to be very different - - if it's a startup and they're in Series C and they're like well I want an IPO in
two years time there's a fundamental difference to the way that you spend money in those contexts and the
fundamental difference in the way that you try and grow those distances so those are elements and I also want to
know from people what are they done you know what what have they tried and what have they found that worked and what
didn't work that doesn't mean to say that I will try those things again or suggest not trying them again but you
need to understand what they've done and then look at that in the context of the competitive landscape in the market etc
so um I think it's also useful to understand if they if they have a
fundamental awareness of what the testing strategy might be or you know a growth strategy or a promotional
strategy these kind of things or a content strategy things that they could google but do they actually understand
how they should be approaching those things and that's part of also
understanding if they've got the applicable resource for what they're trying to achieve do they have any gaps and I'm positioning these as questions
in the context of this process I'm obviously not just going in and just asking them do you have the right
resource do you have any gaps it's a much more conversational piece and actually it might be something that they
discuss and then I interpret and kind of
delve a little bit deeper so for example its if they're trying to if they've got a commercial goal of grand a month
but they've only got stop coming in but also five grand a month and actually they're their warehouse solution kind of
falls apart the orders that translate to two and a half thousand pounds a month that that will come out of the
conversation but that'll be a big point to address yeah and that's kind of
beyond marketing but it's it's also not right in yes position you need to be you need to
be making yeah absolutely so that's that's really kind of the question/answer component there's
clearly a whole host more as part of a client conversation that will be that
will come out of that but then there'll be a point at which a relatively deep
audit needs to be done and this is where a lot of my time is spent in the kind of
inception of this plan so I always try and frame things and I think this
translates to pretty much every vertical and every kind of business that you could possibly want to try and grow but
there's always four components for me yeah awareness acquisition conversion
and retention so awareness can people find you did you know what are they actually looking for do they see you on
the web or in the catalog or in in stores on the high street yeah are they
aware of your brand so they see you on social media are you doing above the line advertising of any kind and a bye
above the line advertising I mean mass broadcast TV radio blended stuff like
Sky app smart where you've got a kind of digital component but it's served across the sky digital network influence the
marketing that's not I found this person who's going to talk about me I'm talking
about portfolio influencer marketing where you approach an agency perhaps
that has a roster of in vertical mass speech marks trusted influences like an
inverted speech it's never risk-free it's never absolutely but but it's
becoming more of a kind of more of a component that needs to be needs to be focused in on it depending on the brand
or the context etc and then from an acquisition or point of view you know pips paid search search engine
optimization fundamental channels that drive people directly to your site there
are obviously many others which can be influenced in different
ways but those the PPC and SEO tend to be where people are spending money and paid social I'm including in paper doing
PPC so yeah I think you know we titled this growth hacking is dead long live
growth hacking and I feel like we sort of had this conversation a little bit off off off line but growth hacking has
become a term that seen synonymous with people trying to sell you a way to a/b test Facebook Ads
and you know is so true right that is so true growth hacking equals AP testing
Facebook ads but actually and this is this is your point isn't it it is not a
be testing Facebook Ads yeah so when growth hacking was foot was kind of it the term was coined I think
by Sean Allis of growth hackers ten years or so ago it was a lot more relevant because the technology stacks
didn't exist to allow people to kind of seamlessly connect data across lots of
different platforms and buy data I mean how your customers interacting with your sites what what what are they browsing
what are they seeing how are they responding to the emails you send them how are they transacting and it you know
obviously for e-commerce that's even more prevalent than most places but you can you can contextualize it but
thinking about all that all those different data sources ten years ago you
had to extract that data from many different platforms and find a way to weave it all together and it definitely
was a hacking process you definitely needed to code something or even more
basic get it all into an Excel spreadsheet and leave it running overnight with a load of villainess
right so but now you can set your ecommerce store up on Shopify plug-in
segments by trestle plugin klaviyo and there you've got a kind of triptych
of seamless data flow and automation between those different platforms which
allow you to very powerfully derive insight segments and target different
bits of your audience different cohort of your audience to be extremely personalized timely and relevant to them
in your in your messaging which is which is essentially the premise for e-commerce fundamentally you know
relevance engages and engagement converts it's it's it's that simple so
if people are focusing on engages and engagement engagement converts you
should remember that you should write that down my stolen that off a friend plagiarized that from from a very good friend of
mine so I think you but realistically you know that growth hacking as a term
now needs to be very scrutinized because
you may think oh what it means don't you know that he feels cool it's a bit of a
buzzword that sounds cool I want a growth heck I want a great fat yeah yeah you need to it ladies they need to know
what that means but this is what your whole process is about right you this yeah the multi-channel yeah yeah yeah
absolutely and so then you know there's that kind of acquisition or point and we go out to conversion what is your site user
experience right as it is it fast as it is it working properly are there any fundamental pain points like the
checkout doesn't work or it's broken on mobile yeah some of this stuff is really obvious I'm going back to basics some of
it is much more nuanced and then email and CRM definitely plays a part in
conversion and then I think from a retention perspective like definitely growth hacking shouldn't ignore
retention there is a huge raft of information
suggesting rightfully so that an existing customer is usually more
valuable than trying to acquire a new customer they care for a lot more of the
sales and proportionately on most e-commerce websites that I see yeah I
think the exclusion is things where you've got them you know Casper mattresses or something or or blinds and
curtains things like that and actually there's some examples and what I'm going to show you that that that have that context but you can still use retention
as a mechanism to derive brand evangelism and referral oil T even if
that loyalties kind of peer related rather than specifically what individual buying
multiple products from you repeatedly obviously the dream is to sell something
so there's something that runs out so you can just constantly do lovely replenishment cycles and and understand
the data behind how quickly those people are consuming those goods like cosmetics
or something like that that's amazing for e-commerce right that's a person but and here's the rub as well there are
again fundamental marketing principles that underlie this this awareness acquisition conversion retention process
and I think well I don't think you I see it day to day and I see it from
colleagues and peers it's there being a little bit ignored because the digital the digital channel prevalence is so
highly positioned in people's awareness and mind sense so I think what people
are forgetting a little bit of are the four PS of marketing price promotion
place products what we know how does that actually influence what you're
trying to do how are you positioning your brand what are your strengths weaknesses oft uses of threats you know
everybody hates the SWOT but if you approach in the right way F SWOT analysis it works super well right right
absolutely so and also same things like you know pestle like political economic
all those kind of factors around the wider market the wider landscape I
definitely worked with businesses where that affects them brexit is a critical example a number of businesses that
she's really shot their lead gen to pieces because because large
corporations just weren't investing money in the run-up to the general election recently and the brexit outcome
and and things like HS tubing in that today that will have severe impacts for pros and cons for different businesses
in the context of that so you need to understand those those wider factors and then things like new product development
and supply chain and and and back to resource because what people
who have as their resource needs to influence what you're suggesting is a strategy you can't just randomly
suggests doing loads of high-value TV advertising if that business clearly
can't support that from a casebook space even if they've got five growth targets
so it's it's really that that kind of holistic understanding I'm trying to
convey and and trying to all of us to educate clients into as well that's fair
enough so just to summarize that because there's a lot of great information there
in it I always find it's helpful to summarize for me I don't know about you but I definitely but to summarize under
your audit you've got your four channels of or four pillars of marketing as I'd
probably call them you've got the awareness phase you've got the acquisition phase the conversion phase
and the retention phase so somebody needs to understand your brand's you then need to get into your website you
then need to convert them and you then need to convert them to becoming a repeat customer and keep them black and
there's obviously these digital channels which you've gone through there like PPC
SEO we've talked about SEO we talked about in last night's podcast then we've
got but you you're also underlined and all this and saying don't forget the old-school fundamentals the four PS what
the pestles and new product developments the supply chains they are still important - absolutely yeah and I think
I'm hoping I've summarized that with justice for you Chris yeah you definitely have and and just as you were
summarizing it occurred to me that I sort of left out things like door drops and and print advertising personalized
print advertising from acquisition and conversion and they have a place there for some brands so then then you know
and not always a pure above-the-line activity I so I think again seeing the
board and seeing the way that I've construct the tasks will will hopefully hopefully illustrate some of that you
know connectivity between different channels and offline and online right okay so if
I look at step three this is about building a list of tasks and I've kind
of put a proprietary framework to this and again we're still not answering any
kind of major astrophysics rocket science territory but there needs to be
a few asked a big-picture view of the midterm and a few of what the quick wins
are right now what do they need to do right now and and that part of that is
my interpretation of of the audit and of their other questions that I've asked
them you know how how am i framing that what I recommend as their prioritize tasks and given those different views on
their on their business and and the big picture thing is obviously referring back to the exit strategy or the
lifestyle business context or whatever they're trying to achieve by when and then I build this this way what would
you how would you define midterm so you said you've got quick wins and you've got midterm a midterm view what sort of
time frame would you put on there I mean it varies wildly for different clients
so eggie a big I would say loosely now might be three to six months midterm
might be six to six to twelve six to and then big-picture might be anywhere from to to to years the
different clients have different different definitions of that but now is
usually all within the first couple of quarters that your approaches where you can do in the next days is normally
right but yeah the quick wins what you can do quickly with yeah okay cool the
only reason I I I don't go specifically to days is because so definitely for
e-commerce days for sure you need to do stuff now get get people to say get
those there's always going to be stuff you can be doing however I also work with clients who are you know need to
build like a lead gen funnel from a thought leadership piece that goes to a landing page that goes to a CRM that
goes to a longer sales cycle so that's that's often not something that can be lay it into a a quick win in in days
but it's certainly in the context of their business it's definitely actions that they need to take now rather than waiting or planning for so this is
always fun and so then this is kind of the value right that I'm trying to add
beyond how it gets executed so fundamentally before it gets put on to
some some nice visual piece that lots of different stakeholders can can enjoy and
interpret I need to actually translate this crazy data based audit into
something that makes sense to people so I position it as what why when how
sorry what why when who how measured and an ice store impact confidence and ease
and I'll go through that a little bit more but essentially can I if you don't
mind I'll open up a slightly different document now great and show you the actual detail so if I probably need to
just zoom in a little bit here we are slow tonight okay so great - framework
is that viewable do you think on screen I'm just seeing a white screen at the moment so hopefully it will come upon in
a second okay well I'm just to talk to you before it comes then for that for
the for the purpose of the podcast audio what this is is a framework to translate
stuff that you found out into a specific task and I want a breakout tasks into
very very very very individual level
detail so they're not they're not generalized what this is trying to do is break everything into a component part
that a team or a single stakeholder can address and work on can you see the
document yet yeah it's just popped up now excellent which is great nice so I'm
creating these with a format and the format starts with a
task title so when I post it into whatever tool I'm using for the client
to to actually understand and visualize it it needs to have a title so in this
case and this is a blended example so there's loads of different clients bits and bobs in there which should hopefully
be anonymized but essentially this task title says make more of measure Plus
offline referrals so in this particular document there's no order yet this is my
brain dump essentially so the task title is make more of measuring on offline
referrals this is in the context of a window covering manufacturer who
provides sustainable fabrics and they go and provide a measurement service and so
when you say make more of measure it's their measurement service not a measure of some exactly eye or something on the
website exact yeah this is super specific to that particular particular context and then you know being in
somebody's property and measuring their that are measuring up for them gives them gives you an opportunity to
leverage kind of a referral mechanism in a very small way so that's what this task is about what what actually is it
okay that's the next step so in this case it's literally London zone only
and in words but crucially offering an incentive off accessories if you ferti
or peers and and it may be a touch of time frame to that as well ok ok so
that's the actual what so we're summarizing here but it's still enough detail so that somebody else could look
at that in the context of that business and go well I understand what the goal is and I understand why I'm suppose to
be doing though the why is leveraging
the premium aspect of the brand and promoting peer network referrals so that's the objective from a Y
perspective yeah yeah when are we doing it ok we're testing it in cycles from
January how are we doing it ok we're going to advertise through door drops print ads and local search ads so
there's digital and offline channels being utilized in that
campaign who's doing it in this case it says to be confirmed but ultimately the
who is where I would frame my suggestion for whether it's an in-house task or
whether it's a task that I'm going to support on personally or whether I should recommend a freelancer that's the
one that stays has to be confirmed usually until you've talked to the client about it because yeah they have
their own resource they might know where to go they might not know where to go so that's that's fine but it needs to be in
there because everybody needs to understand who's accountable for that task yeah and then how we're going to
measure it well get the measure a direct traffic increase we're going to measure code usage if they put a specific media
code on it it's going to be UTM tracked and we're going to measure how many people are referred through the referral
mechanism so they're pretty clear measurement aspects I would tend towards
if possible adding a specific metric improvement by a certain time scale if I
possibly can okay so I really that might have been you know Cloud usage call on
codes used in the first two weeks of the campaign so I'd like to attach
something specific that can be measured to as a as a as an objective that's not
always possible you have to be flexible yeah but it's a good idea if you can do
you can definitely track the progress that way and the other thing that you said well you take a drink of water this
and the other thing that you said which I liked was when you wrote out I'm just
going to pull that document when you wrote out the what the zone to inwards only measurement service but crucially offering incentive or sex blah blah blah
right so when you wrote out the what for that test the thing that you said that I liked was that if somebody else came and
picked at this document and they read it they would understand it so you'd
explained it so that somebody who wasn't involved in that process could pick it up and understand it and bring in that
level of clarity I think his soup super helpful super helpful I really
like that it's a name I'm not I'm definitely not going to suggest that I always get that right no yeah I'm with
you on that I'm with you and I like that okay so underneath that you've got this I see a witch if I'm honest with you my
default thinking is in case of emergency you know who's the either contact on your phone right I called my wife if I'm
lying in a pool of blood sandwich but I'm assuming that's not what it is No so again this is not something that
I've invented it's it's not it's not new it's basically again it kind of goes
back to you prioritizing things like software functionality but I've hijacked
it for this context i stands for impact
so that means how much impact on the business do we think that this task will have so
right down to that specific task and it's quite loose right so we're not
talking about time scales here we're not talking about nailed to the wall revenue
goals or anything like that it's really just the basis for loose scoring and
I'll explain why we need this process and why we also don't rely on it there's muscle angles but so impact out of
how where's our gut feel what do we think this is gonna have a major impact
on the business and in this case I've put because it's a significant impact
right so yeah because really this is and
the rationale behind it for this task is that the exercise is targeted
specifically to the absolute VIP customer it's the ones who are going to spend the most they're super engaged
with the brand they've probably got a peer network that looks just like them so the cohort is lovely if you can get
that kind of referral mechanism and actually the cost of the cost of informing people about this service is
pretty low in this context you know display ad times it's at only zone with specific housing values and only
homeowners translate that through to a Royal Mail door drop that's not that's partially address you're talking about
two three P a postcard it the the actual cost of getting this out is pretty low
so I think I think the in this case the rationale stacks up but that's why we
bring in C which is confidence and that means how confident are we in achieving
that impact so it's almost like a balance and check on on that impact can't just go yeah it's gonna be ten
everything's ten you've got to you got to understand how confident you can be
and and in this case I put six and because door drops are essentially quite
hit and miss they are they are not a perfect timing mechanism and they're cheap for a reason especially if you
partially trust them they might get bounce they might get return the might get lost the you know where failed
delivery there's so many variables with this this with this propagation
mechanism this campaign but you don't really know how it's gonna get disseminated and link to that you're
making assumption that people's peer network is appropriate for this and you're making an assumption that you're
getting to the homeowner and not to a landlord or to a tenant so so the
confidence in this in this is balanced at six and then to kind of top the score
off if you like is is ease so how easy is it to actually enact this this task
and in this case I've put five it's in the middle it's not super easy but it's not super difficult you've got at least
some creative for the ads you've got a negotiated oil male deal or something like that you know you've got to
establish some segmentation and targeting criteria but these are pretty simple to achieve they're not it takes a
bit of time and effort but it's definitely not something that's going to be you're gonna run up against the block or a barrier for this okay so you've got
the ice core here of eight six and five now at some point in the future
once this task is completed do you come back and review those scores and see how
actually were you on the money with those or do you just put them on there and kind of leave them you can do so I
think there's a reality to the situation in that you may that may not be a focal
point in in how you evolve and discuss it's probably a conversation on some tasks not all it's very fluid so that
leaves me neatly into why you would bother doing it right yeah it's it's document I think if you can see in that
corner there this is page of says I thirst five pages worth of tasks into
this gross task framework so if we didn't if we didn't have some level of
basic if prioritization this would be
insurmountable yeah so there's got to be some way to just go quickly all right we
we know what these stores look like if that's a and that one's a when you
add them all up because that's all it is just add them up you some people recommend timesing them multiplying them
putting algorithms in place it's all irrelevant just add them up and then the highest scores the highest goes better keep it simple if you've got a and a
and they've both they're both there or there abouts the same in terms of cost and revenue then it's it's pretty simple
to understand which one should be backlogged in which one should be put as a now action so you're prioritizing
mechanism it's loosely that and I say loosely that because again this is so
contextual it comes back resource it comes back to big picture midterm it
comes back to what are their commercial goals you could have two things that score exactly the same but ultimately
one of them is pretty pretty irrelevant until six months in the future so I think that that's where I scoring it's
helpful but definitely shouldn't be relied on and it shouldn't be like your your stalwart this is how we're scoring
everything and I will not deviate from that I'm so far from that point but it's a steer yeah
that's all this great um and it also opens up the conversation you can you
can talk to people about whether you're right you know you can talk to them
whether they agree with that effort level or whether they agree with that confidence level and and if you're if
you're recommending like a a user experience test so you're saying okay well I want to
tweak the way that the site operates in this fundamental way actually that that
might be you might have put that as efforts for because you know you can do it that easy and Shopify but the client
might have a proprietary system built in react or something so they can't built
them code language that only they they in they use and it's not it's not a
platform that lends itself easily do that so there's a technic there so they'll come back and say well actually
no the easiest is ten for that so that that potentially changes the discussion about that task okay so um I'll flick
back to my my process flow and just one
other thing to touch on with this there's a little piece here that says detailed research citations and
screenshots yeah now the reason I put that in is because I just want to be really clear that yeah a lot of this is
the way that I I personally am interpreting the audit data with my experience and knowledge to this kind of
grouped number of tasks that I think the client should have haven't be be focusing on but I also try wherever
possible to link it to things so if I if I know that they've missed a trick on a
particular way that they could position their photography to take advantage of
neuroscience in marketing I want to illustrate that to them with evidence so
I will try and find suitable citations and research and a level of detail that
goes beyond this is what you should do for the task but really here's why and
there's a whole lot of further reading that's you know guys you do need to not ignore this because it's sort of been
proved by Nike and Adidas and and you know Jaguar and all these nothing that's helpful and received world by clients
when you give them the Y generally so yeah I don't usually get people ah that
they object on practical levels normally so pages of tasks but they shown in
the Y's yeah yeah yeah so say they need to UM say and also the whole screenshot
thing that could be here's an example of how somebody else has done it now I think you should consider emulating or
it could be here is a mock-up that I've done that's just a wireframe but it illustrates the point that I'm trying to
get across so we're really really about translating context in a very very
visual and interpretable way that's great now it has to be said Chris right
I'm just looking at this and I'm listening to you talking I mean you're offering some great insight here but
it's worth just saying you're talking about going into some big organizations and doing this but there's nothing on
here that I see that I wouldn't rule out if you were a start-up ecommerce business you should this process is
gonna work for you you're both the consultant and you're the client right so you're gonna want to do the
task management you're gonna want to do your ice cores you're gonna want to back it up with details and research where we
can you might not have pages of tasks but the half a dozen pages of tests you
have I think this is a really helpful process I've applied this to everything yeah I applied this to a local yoga
studio I've applied this to a massive global multinational there are the
extremes are there and this is what I say at the beginning about essentially being vertical agnostic it doesn't
matter the context is irrelevant the fact and really that's where I think a
lot of the success of the process comes through is that you don't need to be at a certain stage to take advantage of it
and really that's why I'm doing these kind of podcasts with you and
kind of writing articles on this I think I think there's a value in educating people how to do this and then if they
reach a point where they they want to hire somebody to steer them through it then then great but ultimately I feel
like everybody should be trying to approach their business like this especially especially going back to that why and who's it for and and what's the
who are they trying to change because really that's the crux yeah brilliant
okay so then we get with summarize attack the the view I see eight hours a
day every day no not quite it should be worth saying right over the stage there are other computers available from other
computer anything we are a BBC sponsored Borders absolutely yeah Trello works on
Windows too so I'll click on this right so this is this is the this is the
process and this is going to look horrible and overwhelming to people I definitely get that but if you break it
down it's not too bad great so for the
for the audio only listeners what I've basically put on screen is a bunch of
columns and each column has a title and each column contains a load of cards if
you like or or little extra pieces of information that you can kind of delve into and the basic premise is that this
is a way to visualize what you should be doing in your chosen sprint time scale
and the what I frame it as for clients is the far left has a sort of evergreen
column which is objectives in resource and this changes a little bit for different clients but it's essentially
going to reframe every time they look at it we kind of refocus them on that
awareness acquisition conversion retention perspective and I often include a little bit about ice so
explain what the ice core might be in if I click into that card you can see that
it's it's kind of detailing the that we've just talked about what's the impact what's the confidence what's the
ease yeah I might talk to them about things like the lean canvas again this
is not something that I've come up with it's a way to talk to a business about
what their problem is and what their solution should be and what their value proposition is it's it's framing those
questions the why the the what the who they're what are their changing its its framing that into something that's
really tangible and you know they can kind of refer to it I may do that for
them depending on what they've asked me to do I may not mm-hmm then I have a column entitled backlog
and this is where all those pages of tasks get put in the first place and
it's why I mentioned in backlog is a phrase you hear a lot in the sprint agile yeah sort of it's the it is it's
like an inbox in it it's where you just literally throw everything and you're then gonna sort it out yeah all the
tasks that you think are in some way relevant for this client or for it for your business dump them in there and
then at least you've got them in there and you can kind of go down scroll down it start dragging them around moving
them around as you want and I've then got one two three four columns entitled
current sprint neck sprint future sprint and future sprint too so you'd have to go to that depth you could just have
current sprint um in the context of most of my clients I want to add quite a lot
of value so especially if I've if I've come up with an extensive list of tasks
that I think they should be doing then often there is a rationale to include a couple of pretty nailed down Sprint's
and then a couple of Sprint's that are you know so that might be like February March April and May where February March
a pretty pretty nail to the wall in terms of stuff that they're quick wins are now and then April of May are you
know what let's discuss these and keep it fluid as we go but ultimately right now these are probably the things you
should be focusing on okay and then it's really operational stuff so we've got a
column entitled awaiting so stuff gets trapped in there if it's awaiting somebody else doing
something on it or if it's awaiting a techno at you know tech guys inputting
and finishing something off then we've got a done column and then we've got a will not implement column yeah you know
there are stuff you recommend things to clients they say it's just feasible not feasible for us we can't do it and
that's fine or you recommend something and then they go to like that's up one install hot jar so hot jar is a useful
tool to plug into your site and it shows you how people are moving around your your website and how they're scrolling
how far they're scrolling down what they're clicking on on mobile and desktop so I I recommend it it's still
hot jar they turn around to me and said oh yeah I forgot to tell you we've installed Mouse flow so that's the thing that's the same thing that's different
absolutely so that's the Willner implement so really that's the premise so you've got an operational flow of
storing your tasks and then figuring out when to do them and how they get done
the the way the tasks structured so if I go into a card on the backlog you can
see urgency testing zero zero five low stocks warnings so that's that's the title of that task and then I've gone
into the what why when how who measure and then I score yeah you can kind of
there's a number of ways to getting into it into Trello for example you can kind of import from a spreadsheet or you can
zapier it which is you know linking between say peers a tool that allows you to link to different things right
absolutely it can simplify it can complicate but yeah preface it is a
great tool when it works yeah if you don't live like multiple nested ways of
doing things and that's cost you two dollars and so yeah so this is copied and pasted at all intents and purposes
and then I have labeled so in that
particular task yeah exactly so it's a customer experience or orientated tasks
see there is a neuroscience or psychology component so the psychology of buying
behavior is something that this task has
some kind of inherent relevance to it's about urgency testing so it's about the
the positioning of how you display products on your site to prompt
conversion in a more timely fashion okay and there's a there is a psychology
psychology of buying behavior behind that for example I think this is a
evolution as well so when I first set some of these tasks up I labeled them
purely for their function so you've got things like PR referral SEO user
experience brand equity content pure strategy email so you know you can cater
for lots of different things actually this is a bit old what I do now for
clients is definitely add in whether that's going to be a conversion acquisition retention or you know
awareness focused task as well tying that into the absolutely absolutely and
this is I've evolved this process over the over five years it didn't start off like this to start off quite differently
and if the fundamentals were perhaps there but the evolution has taken it to a place where it makes much more sense
now the reason I like to use something like Trello is because it's it's super
visual and you can kind of assign people to a task so you literally add them to
that card you can assign a due date so I want to do this by next Friday and you
can set reminders to it you can attach things pictures spreadsheets separate
exports whatever you can have a dialogue with your client so you know multiple
people can be commenting on this and you can add that was gonna be one of my questions for you actually who do you
who'd you give access to the Trello board to so I assume it's not just
between you and the client you talked about web developers and other sort of bird you typically get involved
in the Trello board so my stance is that I want everybody who they are happy to
have on it on it so for and most clients
that I deal with don't don't have kind of some kind of weird restriction around
that so they recognize that this is connecting the dots so and the dots need
to be connected between tech and content production and paid search agency and
you know SEO agency and directors who clearly different stakeholders will have
different levels of interaction with it in different levels of interest in it
and different levels of time and focus spent on it a marketing manager and e-commerce manager is going to probably
live in it but a you know a director's going to dip in and dip out depending on
whether they're involved in a particular task or a workshop or whatever but the
fact that you can invite yeah I would just I always recommend inviting anybody they're happy to have on it and actually
one of the things that I try and be a proponent of is is transparency so for
me I can't see any value in hiding your overall strategy from your paid search agency for example and I would always
try and get some mechanism going where if you've got different stakeholders
dealing with different functions and different channels share everything between them because your your search
and your paid search shouldn't be competing they they you know they should be the opposite of that they should be
complementary if you're doing some content production for your search engine optimization some evergreen
article to sit on your web and and be coded up with FAQ schema so Google recognizes it on the page really well
your PR agency probably needs to know about that so that they they can decide whether or not there's a hook that they
can weave into it to to weave into a new story you know you you might have a
separate email team they definitely need to know about that piece because they need to know whether they
can build into a newsletter or where they're actually a cohort of your automated emails segmentation should be
made aware of that because it's probably beautifully non salesy but it's going to prompt some kind of some kind of engagement so I
think yeah that there's a real many people as makes sense absolutely wise give them and you can do
that with Charlie he played around with notion yeah so I've used this for clients with notion
not as successfully because the it's not the the can bands harder to manage if I
can even get it working to the same extent but certainly Trello seems to
have become interchangeable with asana and breeze or Monday you know all these
different tools they can choose if a client comes to me with nothing my go-to is Trello because it's free and it's
beautifully visual you know the fact that you can have things absolutely
absolutely and yeah I don't normally get
a lot of complaints about using Trello it's normally it's normally pretty good
and there's a sort of a third aspect there where if you've got a company that are managing their development processes
internally excuse me using JIRA it's the same parent group of companies so you can link JIRA to Trello and now JIRA is
very kind of hard core development project management you wouldn't want to you wouldn't want to find her agency
zero and oh yeah yeah we we tried it for two or three months and even the
developers and the guys ago and this is just beyond us this this is too hardcore so we didn't we didn't stay on it very
long but we did give it a go we did give it a go I think it's very useful in very
very convoluted projects with multiple teams and lots of different lots of lost
different functions being developed at the same time but yeah it's it's very used to five years ago so really really
this is that that's the Kanban I mean I I could go into lots of different cars
lots of different detail but essentially the premise with all of this is showing people what they should be
working on making it visual making of its giving a reason behind everything
making and helping everybody understand a unified point of even if it's just for
discussion you know you get this current sprint I might be on a remote call with the client I might be face to face with them
in a workshop it's a it's a focal point for the discussion they might not decide
to do these things the best I can do is recommend and and give a rationale for
that recommendation super-great I think actually it's something that you could
implement quite easily into your own business for your own marketing activities isn't it and putting those
things in Trello sharing them with your web team showed him with who I was involved but it just breeds
accountability and when you write stuff down like that and you spend some time thinking about it it becomes so much
easier to achieve it whereas if you just write down I don't know get more
Facebook subscribers absolutely it's like a soul destroying task isn't it and
and how do you do that so I know I like it I like you methodology you know the
fact use Trello is cool and you know I see end to end how that process works
and how it how it can work and it definitely improved it could always be
improved I should definitely say that you know for example this is this is a sample one so I've not really gone to
the depth I would for a client but yeah you're right you definitely want to break those kind of overarching
objectives and KPIs down so if one of your if you're one of your acquisition
or KPIs is grow your email list by % in six months you might have five
different tasks over the next three to four months that contribute to that so
each one of those tasks would probably have a smaller component of that of that
you know target it built in so definitely think there's there's a huge
benefit to as you've just identified just taking it from that top level view
and going i need specific tasks to address otherwise i'm not going to make
any progress that's definitely the core how do this this sets the scene for many
different people to easily address specific tasks that contribute to a
holistic goal or set of targets and that's the point good yeah that's very
good so really that that's it and if the final task is the final point sorry in
my processes is simply evolved so you you want to always be asking what can be
better you want to be asking it's actually working for the client so their point in hammering it ahead with it if
it's not working for them because it might be a tweak they might just need a bit of training yeah how how do we keep
this transfer transformative and often this is where a longer-term engagement
will come in from from for me because I'm not you can embed this process but
actually clients still need support in an in going back to that data and going
back and understanding whether things have worked whether the landscapes changed so they need to be redefining
what they do and and you know we kind of go through this process of ideation
execution measurement and then refinement that that it's it's all
centered a little bit around Kaizen which is this Japanese notion of continual improvement and it's sort of a
bit of a it's a bit of a buzzword but it it if you think about it in that way
it's this sort of a lovely principle to run by and you make you what it is right
so you can you could either say yeah I live my life by Kaizen and it's just to learn a rubbish or you could actually
say to clients well you know what we are trying to continually improve and I can
demonstrate that through all of this activity and I can demonstrate it through the way that the data is
presented and the insights presented that the career the rationale for this and I can demonstrate that very clearly through
Google Analytics and Google AdWords reporting and data studio and hot jar or
mass flow or whatever it is all these other data sources so ya know rocket
science but just a whole load of structure to bring order to chaos I
guess which is sometimes what it is know it is and I I love it I can see your
process and see how you you sort of done that with your with your with your ideas
and how that's evolved over time and how that obviously worked for you which is which is fantastic you've obviously got
a lot of success stories with this because you've kept at it for so long with so many clients so we've got the
the proof that actually the system works yeah absolutely does and it goes back to
exactly what you're saying about em context it might work for a huge client definitely does work for smaller clients
and it's you choose how much of it you need to embed but as long as you go through that process of I need to
achieve something I break it down into small tasks I figure out what tasks I need to do first it's almost it's almost
infallible it's a process but but as everything it needs attention and it
needs execution you can't just bang it in a Trello board and expect things to happen there's got to be
they've actually got to do the work you
can you know you can create these beautiful Trello boards like you say there is this thing in people's heads
which go why it's down on the list so therefore is done and you come back and
go how we get on with the list guys and the things moved and it's the most extraordinary thing and fundamentally
you it's great to bring that order from chaos and write stuff on a list but unless you actually get your head down
and do the work you've just got a very beautiful list absolutely so
and don't get me wrong right that's the point of failure that is the critical
point of failure because the variation with which clients buy into the process
is quite significant so where a client gets it and buys into it they see
success very quickly where a client eyes into it realizes that they don't have
the really source and says for example to me find me the resource they get
success very quickly where a client buys into it and goes well this is lovely now what do we do I'm just gonna ignore it
clearly that's a harder that's the hardest cell to keep to keep going with and that's about me educating the
clients properly thankfully that doesn't happen very often and it happened more
before I involved the process to make it more visual and to make it more
fundamentally orientated around those kind of why what questions so the the
valley getting the value at the beginning propagates the buy-in for sure
and so is that why I guess check on that
so one of the good things about those questions in the beginning the why are you trying to change the what questions
they're there to bring understanding but also fundamentally to help you buy into
the process that you're just about to go through because there's a lot of work in this process creating your your Kanban
board but that's nothing compared to the work you're gonna have to do to do those
actual tasks right and and so there's a lot of work after it and if you've not
created an environment where you where you have got the blame where you've got the determination to push through and to
invest your time you'll resource your energy into it you get a struggle aren't
you absolutely and I think there's definitely a couple of angles to that
one is just just to go back to that
point it's overwhelm yes it looks like there's a lot of task on there but generally there'll be multiple stakeholders dealing with those
so as long as you can frame the the context for people and that part of the
buy-in is is saying and that's part of the beauty that's rather construct is they you you're assigning multiple
things to different people and then you have an independent dialogue on each of those so what what I'm definitely not
trying to do is set this up for them and then leaving them to get on with it you know that's not the aim the aim and
neither is the aim to nudge people along because people need to take accountability for their own for their
own actions and everybody's a big boring deal they should be able to focus on the job and get it done ultimately but you
might run into objections I know the real world but I mean and I and I would
say to people and listen you can only do what you can only do right you've got the same amount of time as everybody
else in the world if you right if it's just you and you've got things on that list guess what you're gonna feel
overwhelmed every time you look at it so take the put a hundred and forty of
them somewhere else and focus on the ten focus on what you can do and this is where you talked about the
prioritization isn't it what's going to give you the biggest bang for your buck what's your quickest wins right let's
work on those first get some momentum as the business grows we can pull these others in which is the beauty of the
backlog right because the backlog just be this endless scroll of stuff that we
might need to do at some stage and current sprint might be five tasks ten tasks two tasks one task it doesn't
matter as long as it's the thing that's going to have the most effect in the shortest amount of time against what
they're trying to achieve so yeah not every client's board will look like this
crazy hundreds plus tasks sitting there just waiting for somebody to cry into
them and you know if they definitely don't all look like and that's part of the the value add I guess isn't it is
making sure that you do present in a way that isn't overwhelmed
so yeah I just I think it's really interesting I think the it's the fun is
in getting to the detail for me and then
witnessing clients and businesses grow and see success off the back of of kind
of being able to break it down into these tasks so really that's where where I see the wins
you know agencies actually come to me sometimes and say can you can you trainers in this process can you
illustrate how to how to embed this in our in our ops because we sort of do
this channel and we sell this retainer and we do that digital bit and that offline bit but actually we're not we're
not connecting the dots for this kind of holistic strategic piece and this this is definitely a value add for for
digital age especially I can see that but yeah that's there that's really it
well Chris listen I've enjoyed that it
like I say the start I had no questions other than less to see where this takes us and I I've really enjoyed it and I I
think I've learned a lot actually and lots of questions for there I said this last night I did learn a lot and I have
today I've got lots of questions in my notebook I'm still it I'm still an analog guy in a digital world pen and
paper store works really well for me yeah all the best brains all the best
brains anyway and Chris listen how do people get a hold of you how do people
connect with you how can they reach out to you where where's the best place to do that I mean I'm on LinkedIn we can
hopefully can display a link but easily my websites at the agile CMO coach UK is
a good place to get in touch there's a few examples of how this process has been used in very different conversation
case studies on there having and in case studies is strong it's more this client
and a couple of lines about about what they are there's a big old get in touch
call to action at the bottom so people can get and all my details on there see mo
koto UK that's correct and we'll put the links to Chris and his
site and maybe Chris she could send me that slide that you had and we can put that as a PDF in the show notes and
people can go and grab a hold of that and download that and look at that to their heart's content but we will link
to Chris's website in the show notes and also to Chris's LinkedIn profiles do
check those out at madman CENTCOM and you will be able to follow Chris and connect with Chris and hook up with him
no problem thank you very much yesterday you froze a little bit on my screen so
as us technology had not failed me why did the last minute think I was just
keeping still connected me on LinkedIn
I'd love that but definitely yeah just put in the notes saw your own curiosity podcast and that'll just frame it up for
me that'd be really useful yeah thank you for that and I really appreciate you having me on I hope that this helps some
people and you know be very appreciative to be asked know it's been fantastic
Chris been great to connect with you listen super appreciate your time thanks
so much for sharing your wisdom it has been fantastic and I'm sure everybody
else enjoy it and I no doubt we will hear from you soon okay thanks Chris thank you good night so I hope you got a
lot out of that wasn't that incredible and amazing there is so much in there to
think through and to chat through with your team if you've got a team and even if it's just your mum or your wife
whoever it is just go and talk to them about what Chris has shared and started to implement that through yourself there
is so much in there do check out the show notes we'll put all the stuff in there and you'll be able to see all of
that sort of stuff I appreciate some of you listening to the podcast in their car you're like what has just hit me
there's so much in there I really need some help get in there and make sure you connect with Chris I'm
sure he'll be more than happy to answer your questions and help you out if he can because he's just that sort of guy
he's a cool guy do you connect with him LinkedIn or his website the agile CMO
Owen if I can I'll just put an icon i I was gonna put that back on screen but it's not working so do check that out
and do connect with Chris in the meantime if you are a podcast listener make sure you subscribe to the show
wherever you get your podcast from we are in all of the good places like I
said at the start we do broadcast these interviews live on Facebook at the same
time as I'm recording them so currently it is almost o'clock in in on the
evening of Tuesday there what is it the th of February will recall in this which is when we're actually
broadcasting it live on Facebook it's gonna go out as a podcast at some point
in March because I'm just about to take a trip to New Zealand catch it with some
consulting clients over there which would be great looking forward to doing that trip and but do subscribe to the
Facebook lives they will come on at odd times it all depends on when we can do these with the guests which is cool but
if you subscribe and do the little notification thing it will come up on your feed when we're doing them come along join because I've no doubt you'll
have had questions you could come on write the comments and the the guests
will answer them for you which is fantastic make sure you check out curious tundish tool and light bulb
agency the two sponsors of the show thanks for watching it is being great having you with us and like I said I
hope you've got a lot of it and I wish you every success with your e-commerce business and I will see you in the next
podcast bye for now