Weapons of Influence and Their Application to eCommerce

okay welcome to the e-commerce show with me host Matt Edmondson the Curiosity
podcast almost forgot what it was called there for a second mind blank never mind welcome to the show it's great to have
you along in today's show we have a very special guest a digital marketing expert
called Merrick D'Souza and Merrick is going to be talking to us about the psychology of influence and how this is
going to be a bit of a game changer for the world of e-commerce that's right and
if if you're new to the show for those who don't know me my name is Matt Edmondson we are now recording season
of the show can you believe it it's been going on now for three seasons we've got some great feedback from you guys and
one of the things that we do you would have heard me talking about this in previous shows but if you knew maybe you
haven't heard me talk about it yet one of the things that we do is we broadcast live on Facebook as we're recording the
interview so tonight's interview with Merrick is being broadcast live on Facebook for those of you are watching
this on Facebook hi it's great to see you just give us a wave or a shout in the comments a bit great to hear from you so
if you are curious about these kind of interviews that we do because we have some great guests on the show then make
sure you connect with us on Facebook and join us on the Facebook lives because as I interview the guess you can ask your
questions you can join in the conversations and they will be more than happy to jump on board and have conversations with you so it's a great
thing to do now before we get into it I do want to give a big shout out to the
sponsors of the show because without the show sponsors there'd be no show if that
makes sense I'm sure it does now the first sponsor is the curious digital ear ecommerce platform it is the
very ecommerce platform that I use myself and they've got some great new
features coming out and one of the things that is just about to get launched and it will probably be
launched by the time you hear this if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast if you're watching on Facebook live give us a few days they're
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phrase everybody is using them is unprecedented times we are in unprecedented times we are in the midst of the co-ed lockdown here in the UK and
I know it's happening all over the world and online digital business seems to be
in a lot of respects thriving in the midst of mayhem and chaos and so I know a lot of people are trying to jump
online to build their ecommerce business and curious have decided that the their
core system the base ecommerce system will be run on a pay what you can model
so you don't have to pay the fixed subscription fee if you can only afford five bucks a month then just pay five
bucks a month if you can't afford anything don't pay anything just tell as you can't just tell them you can't
afford anything at this stage in time build your business and as your sales grow then have a think about it can't
can't say any further than that right the second sponsor for today's show is light bulb the light bulb agency who do
end-to-end e-commerce services they in effect take care of all those bits of e-commerce that you don't want to do or
you don't have the skills to do or even the expertise so whether that's marketing I mean I was having a
conversation today with somebody and just running through the key aspects of e-commerce marketing you know from email
to SEO and all that sort of stuff and some of them they were doing really well but they'll one or two they were like you know what we need some help in
that area so I'm like go talk to the lightbulb guys that they'll help you in that area they really will they've got a
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talk to them that they could guys they'll help you and they're great sponsors so thank you to them now shall
we crack on with today's show so like I said to you before my guest is called Merrick D'Souza he is a digital
marketing professional it says here in my notes with over years of international experience helping
organizations build customer focused digital engagement I didn't even know digit or was around years ago but
there it is apparently he's been doing years I just I just people
he has worked both agency and client side experience ranges from fortune
startups so which is good because we have a whole bunch of people who watch
this show who are startups and we have a whole bunch of people who are well they're like fortune companies we
have such a wide sort of display of people watching it's great so America's gonna help all of us which is great and
he's skilled in up in the organization's reimagine and transform their customer experience by understanding the
opportunities and challenges that new technologies can have it couldn't be a
more apt timely conversation so I'm excited to have him on board in the pre
call it was great actually talking with Merrick and and talking about what we're gonna talk about on the show because he had a great idea about this whole
psychology I mean from some rather than tell you about it now I want to keep you waiting on I'm gonna bring Merrick onto
the screen so let me click the button let me unmute you Merrick thanks for joining us on the show it's great to
have you hi Matt it's nice to be here thanks for inviting me no problem now whereabouts in the world are you right
now I'm in London oh okay and we are in kovat times at the moment has the
lockdown there it's working pretty well I think yeah okay every day actually
like just not just London numbers but local numbers yeah okay actually this
part of the London isn't doing too badly but warring times yeah yeah I'm
precedented I think is the phrase that people use you know there's a lady who works in my office Michelle and she said
to me she said you know what if someone says to me one more time the word unprecedented I'm gonna slap him in the face so it's very tempting just to go
around going unprecedented unprecedented so anyway that's not what we're here to talk about Merrick um it's like I said
in the start of the show you're a digital marketing guy years experience what is that what does that look like had have you got from years
to now a quick sort of run through right I mean I've really fell into marketing I
hadn't really planned to do it but I my
passion I think is really what drives human behaviour and that's been consistent cuz I started out too
CRM so it's always been about data for me okay so let me interrupt for those
that don't know what CRM is customer relationship management okay basically
it's basically the software on computers that runs your database isn't it it's like yeah so it was write a beginning of
really how can technology begin to change the way that we do marketing and
advertising so you know for the first time we were thinking about creating one
view of the customer and had we drive more personalization and what are the
ways that we can be more scientific in our marketing efforts to be more
relevant and optimize responses so this this goes back a long way long before
technology but the thing to think about
actually because we talked about a lot of these things now like the customer journey in the personalization like they're new things you know but it's
it's this has been around for a while people have been thinking about this for a while haven't they this is not just you know in the last few years despite
the rhetoric of some websites I would hasten to it no absolutely I mean it's
it's it's always made me smile this thing to experts in in digital who maybe
have been in it for four or five years who definitely know that know their stuff but they think it's all new yeah
and you know some of the ideas go back to the s
with book clubs and things like you know offer testing AV testing all of that was
was being done a long long time ago it's just now we've got technology to do
it at a speed of digital basically yeah and the ability to to test multiple
variables instantaneously using AI you know it just obviously completely new
ballgame and ability to constantly experiment you know it's just all kinds
of new tools it's a question of how do you think about it how do you I think what's missing though some science is that we miss the human
element we need to put back into it yeah and especially when we think about well what should I be testing I think this is
where some of the psychologies needs to be thought about again yeah and this is
where I can't wait to get into this conversation because this you understand in the psychology of influence and what
the impact is on e-commerce I think is a great conversation to have and you came up with a really unique idea when we had
our pre called you want to tell folks what that was I'm sorry remind me again what was the
idea yeah it was it was just to go through the six lessons wasn't it from
the very well-known book Robert Cal Dini book okay right so yeah Robert sealed
any so so this is one of my favorite books I mean it's not a new book it's it's it's been around for quite a while
but I've always been interested and passion about what what drives people's
behavior and I was looking as researching for information about
influence and psychology and this is the the best example I could find I mean
there are a number of good books out there yeah but this one called influence this science and practice is based on
Robert killed in his research and it's a simplest the simplest explanation of of
six important shortcuts that that we have the people people use to influence
their behavior yeah so we'd like to believe that everyone gathers all the
available information before they make a decision but the sad fact is that there's too much information out there
and so we use these shortcuts as ways to make decision-making easy for us and so
there are six different shortcuts repres with prophecy scarcity authority
consistence liking and consensus yeah and and you
see these all the time now and I think about it in my other life I find
experiences where I can see someone using some of these triggers and these
are the six that we're going to talk about tonight right so we're going to go through each one of these in in turning
we're going to talk about what it is and how it applies to the world of e-commerce and and the first one we were
trying before we came on air to actually figure out how to say reciprocity and it
is not an easy word is it so if you're watching this just whatever you're doing now if you've got your headphones on
people might think you're nuts but just just say the word reciprocity maybe in the correct way and you'll understand
the dilemma that we've had right so but despite the fact that it's not an easy
word to say for someone like me what is it what does it mean why and why did he
start there do you think mrs. poetry can
say it got the same disease I've got he started it it's contagious now it's
simply the the idea that when we receive a favor a gift we feel a social
obligation to return the favor okay so
the researchers think that this is this behaviors come about because our
ancestors learned to share food and resources as an skills as a means to
survive they found that their collective survival improved yeah so we become you
know we've created this culture off of indebtedness and division of labor and
and that that's not become culturally ingrained so we often feel a social
obligation that's when we receive something that we feel we need to give something back especially if what we
receive was ever was never asked for it was as you know done with authenticity
so it's about giving a gift and being authentic in it but giving a gift that
wasn't asked for that was a key phrase you mentioned there wasn't it this is something that they didn't know was coming
exactly yeah yeah I feel the need to return that favor yeah so I think it's
important as well just when we go through these that you know there are examples out there that what I think is
not being ethical and you know I definitely want to push that when you try and use some of these triggers to
try and remember to be as ethical as authentic as possible sure yeah we're not yeah there's a fine line isn't there
between persuasion and manipulation and you've got which side of the fence you
sat on don't you so that's a very good point very very well put so let's talk
about this reciprocity then and how how does that so this is a faith this is a
gift that I've given you I've done a favor who didn't ask for and you feel a social obligation to return that favor
and have you got an example of where that just works generally in in life
yeah obvious one well I mean I don't know it's obvious but the one that I found quite recently as I I just bought
a new belt and and I wanted to have a couple of
holes punched in it walked on it so I was just walking I was doing my daily exercise and I was walking by a leather
shop like a cobblers so I thought oh they might be able to punch a couple holes so I walked in and I asked the guy
can you help me and he goes yes sure no problem so I give him the belt he punches two
holes like okay so how much was that and he says to me well pay what you think it's worth and I was like you know now
later on I thought well hold on a second I could've just walked out and go I don't you know just not pay anything then yeah but I gave him a pound I
thought well hey let's go off on a second I probably pay I probably overpaid but what he's giving me is he's
given me a gift if you like of trust and I feel obliged now to honor it right
give him pence I felt obliged probably overpaid yeah a
lot of examples like this I remember your little fan right absolutely yeah
yeah so my oh good I knew there was a reason I liked you so many years ago we had I
went to a charity events for the local foundation yeah and so cleaned out leaks
was there Ian Rush was there and then they give you free food they give you free drink you get a chance to take your
photograph with Russian dog leash so it's always free B so when the auction starts you feel obliged to bid yeah
right I'm saying I would have thought yeah absolutely and of course that's the bid go then momentum builds the bidder
so these are just so simple examples that I think you know that you see all
the time yeah but I think you know in in e-commerce when we do you know blogger
outreach right the the paradigm should be that you know before you approach
them to ask for something you should give back right like you you like the
content you you comment on it maybe you share some of the content but you do it
authentically righty you pick content about that you find valuable and you give valuable feedback so that builds a
certain amount of rapport datalink and maybe to share your content and share
your your website or your promotions so before you ask you you give yeah that's
great I mean I you know from my own point of view I get a lot of people every day contacting me saying can i you
know post something on your blog or Jeremy know can we come
can you do this for me and they're asking for favors and I % of the
time I do not feel obliged to do anything other than say thanks but no thanks you
know I don't even have to do that but I mean I do I make a point of saying things but no things but but you're
right if they if they change their tactics and rather than saying can I you know can you publish this on your blog
if they came to me and said right how can I help you what can I gentleman is and they they give something first and
have that mentality I'm much more likely to just sort of be involved with that
I'll tell you where I've seen this work really well I don't know if this is a good example but it's just sort of spring to mind was the young lady I was
mentioning to you earlier a lady called Michelle okay Michelle's been with me for years right and she's now the
director of Jersey Beach company so she's she's been with me for a really long time she's amazing an amazing
person love the Bynes office she's fantastic and when Michelle started obviously we
didn't know her I had no idea who she was and we were just a young startup business at the time and she came to us
to work as a bookkeeper right and she wanted to retrain she's never done
bookkeeping a whole life just felt like she wanted to accountants in bookkeeping so came to us and said what can I do the
accounts and bookkeeping role and you know what she didn't take a salary for the first three months it was whole let
me you know I'm gonna do this for you mmm and you know here we are twelve thirteen years later she's now or she
caught the only job that she's not had yet is mine and you know German she's she's now number two in the whole
organization and it all started because she gave before asking to me so in the
standard you know here's my CV give me my money and I'll come work for you she's like no no I'm gonna come work for
you if this works you know you'll give back sort of thing so yeah real
fascinating story well I think at this particular period of time as well with
with the lockdown I think it was great opportunity as well but you're seeing a
lot of online businesses give free training you know things that were
costly they're given way for free yeah and that's a good way to to to give back
if you like and build that relationship yeah no that will pay back in the longer
term yeah totally if that's what's curious is doing with their pay what you can model and I think
that interesting so it ties in with your belt story because you know initially
they had conversations about do we just give the the core platform away for free my advice was I don't think you should
give it away for free I think you should tell people to pay what they can because I feel like people need to have skin in
the game mmm and I think you'll get a lot less time wasters because they'll there's
that favor involved isn't there there's that like he would the belt there's that you've given me something you've
actually trusted me now so actually I'm gonna I'm actually going to be a good customer back at some point
in the future want to make this work so yeah interesting yeah I like your point
about skin in the game that's always an important part of it I mean pop just you
know unwind one one this is the guy with the belt did to you didn't he he made understand I don't worry about
it now you're vested by saying I'll pay what you think is worth you've now got you your reputation is on the line at
this point yeah yeah I think he didn't know you from Adam and if he'd have walked out it wouldn't have changed
anything with it but it was just it's fascinating alright sorry you talks about how you
think about yourself yeah I could walk away and never see him again but I could live with myself yeah I could look at
myself in the mirror every day that's not who I think I am and so he's yeah
nothing nuts I think he's used some a good piece of psychology on me yeah but you do how authentic that is
because I think he knows I'm gonna put I'm gonna pay more than it's actually worth yeah so you feel a little bit
manipulated afterwards you could do potentially yeah I tell you I've seen
them I've seen massage therapists do this really well when you go to the
airport you say how much is it for a massage so we'll give you a -minute massages pay what you think it's worth and you'll
pay him probably twice what they would have charged you I think it's fascinating psychology but this all
comes down to this reciprocity idea doesn't it this is we're talking about this because it's this is idea number
one you know when you receive a gift or favor you feel a social obligation to return that favor and so how would we do
this do you think with customers so we understand how I could do this with a
blogger but you're setting up an e-commerce business what sort of things could you do with this idea of
reciprocity to build your business do you think so I think we'll give aways I
mean I think that you know content can be something to giving to to customers
right so you're tying your knowledge is
also lucky is a useful not a commodity but a but a useful resource to have so
what I find a good tactic is if you've
got a social media presence then getting people to making people famous for
example if they've if they've connect with you and engage with you then you
give them thanks you make them famous right that kind of thing and really help
use that
to to drive to drive more sales that's a
great tip it's a great idea okay so what is the second principle the second
lesson here so the second one is scarcity all right so that example where
people tend to want more of those things that there's less abundance
off and you see this a lot in e-commerce don't you you see this principle all the time yes indeed slow sighs you do hurry
last few remaining no exactly so again when I mentioned that you know this
whole scheme has been around for decades you know when I first started doing CRM
that's one of the things you're taught right so time limited offers so you know
there's only so much time you've got like a day or hours or there's only
of these available there's another ways you can package it to try and
create the feeling off off of scarcity an example in the book I think was when
British Airways was still flying Concorde to New York and they announced
that they were going to cease that routes the next day the sales went
through the roof as so these people knew that time was running out that they couldn't you know they
wouldn't be able to take Concorde to New York selves just we are doubled even
though the change the price nothing has to change around the service but you
know since this idea for off of scarcity drives sales yeah it's a good it's true
isn't it and I think and again coming back to your point earlier I just want to point out there is an element of
integrity and authenticity to this because I've seen this used a lot on websites like hurry less one remaining
yeah and you've got a thousand of them in stock jeanna mean and you're just saying that to try and get people to buy it and I
think there has to be an integrity to this because I think customers ultimately see through that kind of stuff and they stop trusting you and but
if you're genuine and if you're authentic in you know hurry last few remaining people go okay cool and they're more likely to buy it
yeah I mean I mean it's not just you know small websites to do that when I
would argue that counties at Apple do this so Apple
you know the lols be a leak about a new phone be launched yeah and there's some
debate whether that leak is genuine or whether Apple have done that deliberately because it drives us drives
up anticipation about the product and then when they launch the product
[Music] there's never enough available yeah right so just guess he thinks oh it
drives up you've built anticipation and you know you're driving up demand
because everyone wants one before they run out yeah and everyone know little well that they're not gonna get one for
one it's clever its clever idea it's you know just airport I've seen so it's just
clear ice to work for the Novo so we were obviously in competition so that that's this my hot take if you like you
know I you can see it right and I am I owe over
the weekend there's a website that I went onto called alpha leet it's a website my son
likes and they do sports clothing and they do really nice really comfy sports
clothing shadow powerfully they make great products um but what they do is
they do a launch of their products and they tell you ahead of time the launch is happening hustle may do it I've seen
a lot of the sort of fitness brands do this where they they now launch a product and once it's gone it's gone
mmm so it's it's not what we'd call an evergreen product it's like wow I've got t-shirts once they're gone they're
gone I'm not getting them reprinted and it puts this element of scarcity around it so if I own it I am one of rather
than one of an unlimited number right whenever you buy a t-shirt from I don't know H&M or wherever you don't think oh
this is a limited opportunity to sing as a t-shirt and so they're using this launch this scarcity idea like that and
I've seen that work very very well in e-commerce and actually as a way to launch a product it's not a bad idea
especially if you can get that demand like up or get that anticipation and just build it up so once they're gone
they're gone mmm it's it's a clever way of doing it right I mean you know I think that you
can have like collectable versions I think that's something that little companies do really well they'll have
the limited edition versions of the product so people come by and if they
can't buy that limited version they'll buy one of your normal products so
you'll see a halo effect on your other products as well yeah I mean obviously
having a limited edition if it's if you've done it in a genuine way it can you know have a genuine effect on the
rest of your business yeah totally yeah it's an interesting idea okay so that is
scarcity if you got any more examples there or should we move on to the next one well the last example I had was
again something we used to do when ours Lenovo knows like part of our relationship building with some of our
advocates so we give them access to people behind the scenes things that
normally you wouldn't get access to right and that was a good way of
building sort of relationship yeah I mean you know access to events that we
were driving or just access to product designers the merchandise people we love
to get good feedback they got the benefit because it made them more of an authority therefore built their personal
brand but that's kind of that kind of first scarcity value being used if you
like to kind of drive more business yeah well drive your marketing that's
interesting okay so what's the what's
the third one third one is Authority so
I'm sorry I'm smiling if you're listening to the podcast you and you will not realize that I'm smiling in the face I've just told you but I'm smiling
because I think this is where everybody goes to straight away to me all right yes or at least in their heads yes this
is they go to so sorry I interrupted you you crack on no no no I mean you're actually right I mean you know I think
the difficulty with this I suppose is we all want to create you know thought
leadership content but in fact there's a deluge of content so actually creating
content that's genuinely unique is difficult and I think that was the point
you made earlier about you know things that only you would know things that are
that really come from you personally from your personal experience I think is
really valuable but the authority thing is is is something that's really hard
wired into us I mean we were we know well that's people in uniforms just
trigger natural behaviors in us that we don't really sort of think about I do I
still stand up straight when I see a police policeman so yeah I don't know
myself demonstrate yeah yeah I mean this
whirring although amusing a incident in
the book where this participant invited to what he thinks is an experiment to
look at memory and the act of punishments on ability to memorize things so he rocks up and he's
introduced to this man in a white suit in a white coats and another person he thinks as a participant but actually is
an actor and he's told experiments basically that you're given a list of
pairs of words that you need to memorize and if you get anything wrong you get
electric shock when he's told that he is
the person applying the electric shock and the other person is the person who's
the learner and of course there's no electric shock but the actor just
pretends to be electrocuted and there's like different volts or different
grades voltage go that he has and each time that the person gets it wrong then the
researcher tells them to give them another electric shock of increasing
voltage and of course you know it gets quite excruciating because the the
person supposed to being electrocuted is like crying have to help but you know /of the time the participants
finishes the experiment in other words go through all three levels and that's
just purely on the authority of the person giving the instruction of sky was
in a white cake you assumed he knew what he was doing exactly and the reality was you should have stopped sooner but you
kept going cuz I was someone else but I remember reading that story and going oh my goodness yeah exactly
oh my goodness what are we jeez so so you know authorities is a very it's very
important trigger and that's really where everyone's our marketing I think does come in so if you don't feel ready
to level or to to leverage your own authority and Contin then borrow other
people's right so that's really where you can find good influences influences
and get them to show your story yeah obviously that's a good point so if
you've not got the authority level yourself find someone who has that's willing to work with you piggyback their
authority to get going and actually that brings your credibility up as well right brings your own authority absolutely
absolutely but you know just talk about your own years of experience courses
you've done people you know things that you've achieved all of those things are don't sound important but actually some
Lily crates that you know Authority mesfet agility people could say yeah but
reviews and ratings I mean I'm about to say that it sounds very good good segue
into some like a review or item from a customer because actually it's not it's not me saying how great I am it's the customer
saying how how great you are is was gonna carry more weight which is what happens in a review isn't it or a
testimony yeah absolutely especially if you can get a regular review from from
somebody who has credibility then then that's then that really helps but the
the most difficult thing I think is building your own authority right and that you can only do a time it is a time
thing do you think there's there's a sort of a time factor to Authority I
think you get better at it I think the longer you do things the more likely you
can find insights that are valuable to share yeah but I think you need to
reframe what you think of as useful I think it's important to think what are
the things that you uniquely know and can bring and some of that going to be your data so what are the things that
you can do on your website experiments and you can do that would be helpful for others so I could who you know they'll
see something happening the Google search I'll go with up for example and they'll immediately alert people going
you know what do you think is this is this what I'm seeing using the same thing that kind of thing helps build
your authority as well yeah it's great I am a great example of that actually
we're working on a project at the moment with a lovely lady called Joanne Jewett and Joe and she's from the Northeast she
has that sort of Northeast accent and approach to life which is very matter-of-fact you know I just
straight-talking love the bones offish is a great lady joke and if you're watching this Joe Joe hi are we listening to Joe hi I'm super excited to
be working with that we're doing a project which is hopefully gonna get launched in the next few weeks of websites like % done the guys have
been working super hard on it and and she is selling skincare and makeup okay
online now I sell skincare and makeup on I know how complex it is and I know how competitive it is and so how does she do
it differently right how does she create a website that is different from every other website out there selling makeup
and skincare but well actually the the the marketing aspect of it is going to
be around her and not just the products so in effect what she's doing which i
think is quite clever as she's gone and curated the best products for her clients because her clients trust her
and she has that authority and that credibility and for those of the the clients that don't know if she'll
quickly build that authority and credibility because she'll tell you stories about how when she did makeup for Princess Diana well I know all of a
sudden everything changes Jeremy no your ancestor oh you've done Bette Midler oh you've done Barbra Streisand and she can
destroy all these names into conversations right and so she's aiming this website at women in their sort of
fifties in their sixties helping them to sort of rethink their makeup right because apparently makeup in your
fifties and sixties is not the same as it was years ago you have to rethink it right so I'm the last person to tell
that story I have no authority whatsoever but you know what she does and with the clients that she's had in
the referrals that she had people listen to and go ok I'm I can I can now
understand what you're saying and so she's very much playing on her authority in that space to build her business I
think it's quite clever but it's ladies coming back to this statement you said you she has something unique to say yes
not the same as everybody else so that's an interesting example though because obviously one of the recent phenomenons
or phenomena is the online influence especially makeup doing videos giving
lessons yep but it comes back to my earlier point about time I mean I think one of the interesting things is you
know when people begin that journey they don't know anything and so they actually sharing that learning journey yeah
and they're sharing things they've learned along the way you if it's something that they've been told
then we share that yeah and building trust north assisting with their followers so that's where I think you
can build authority over time yeah can and it can be it can be about sharing your journey as well yeah so I
see a lot of that happening now on places like tic toc and I think you know
it's all podcasting now is also something that's well it's it's already
huge and it's just growing yeah but you know it tell us about finding your niche
yeah I suppose other thing about authorities its what niche are you Authority in I need to find that well
enough yeah and my experience is % of people can be an authority in a
specific type of niche exactly yeah don't try to be all things to all people
exactly and actually a lot of people say all the time well I'm not an expert in anything and actually it's not true when
you dig down and just ask a few questions actually you can very easy go well no you're a bit of an expert in
this area aren't you and you've done well in this area of life where the gentleman like my wife would say I'm not
an expert in that kind of stuff I'm like babe we've got three of the most amazing kids in the world you're like you're an
expert in in being a parent let's start there right after two years of marriage
I'm still you know madly in love with you you're an expert at being a wife let's start there and then actually that
when we talk further oh you can teach people how to speak English and so there's all this stuff that starts to
come out that actually she she's she's quite expert in but it's hard to see sometimes your own level of expertise
because we we think often we're not good enough or we Jeremy we don't have that sort of ability to - especially if
you're British I find America right there's no disrespect to my American cousins
haven't lived in the States for a number of years and in the state she can like you I think you can matter the window
I'm brilliant I'm an expert at something right you British you kind of come out
the room going nearest queue for me to go and stand in right yeah I think we
from the tallest Papaji syndrome here sometimes we can be a little bit shy to
to talk about ourselves too highly and I
think also we just we we take too many too much for granted and we compare
ourselves to other people and we always come out badly when we do that I think
it comes back to context yeah you know when you when you really look at your context to help you define a niche then
that's when yeah things begin to pop if you like no it's
good I like that okay principle number let me just give a
recap so number one we've got reciprocity which is about the gifts in the favor number two was about scarcity so you
know basically people want more of something that they can't have and then authorities so people follow the lead of
credible knowledgeable experts so what's number four where what's the
next one so number four was consistency mm-hm so this is where people like to be
consistent with things they've done or said in the past right so so example
example from the book okay and this isn't necessarily a very ethical
practice but the example was from toy stores so toy stores obviously their
sales peak at Christmas and then they have a massive lull in january/february so their problem is how did they
increase their sales in that dead period
so what they do it's actually a tactic that incorporates a number of these
triggers so what they do is they do a massive massive advertising campaign just before Christmas say for a new
racing game that gets the kids all excited and of course their kids they go to their parents saying please can you
buy me that for Christmas so they get then go to the store to buy it and
all season the scarcity principle they've sold out sure all right so then they buy something else of equal value
to make up with the fact they couldn't buy this race this race set come January
they rerun as ads so now the kids going but you promised so the parent how well
they've made they've made the promise they've got to be consistent what they've said back to buy to buy the race
car to buy the the race car set yeah right so not a very ethical way of doing
things but though I thought I you know I thought was interesting really a good example but but for me you know I think
it's something we that it's always been part of what we've done right here you get somebody to respond to you to to to
an email they're more likely to go on to purchase so on social media if they've
endorsed you in any way whether they've liked you comment it or share your content then remark you to them because
surely the more likely to then purchase than somebody who you're targeting cold right so one tactic for example that
I've used is before product launch you build a lot of anticipation you get
people to like contents that you publish and then you use that to retarget and you'll find that your your response
rates increase because you can see it as consistency you cannot see that people
are like you know raising their hand to say you know I'm likely being marked for that product yeah but that kind of
consistency I think is just the trigger
that works I mean the even the example I gave earlier with the the belt you know
I'm kind of consistent with who I am yes how I see myself so anything that
happens in public I will tend to want to be consistent with yeah so people like
to be consistent with things they've already done and I'm just thinking this through a little bit more it's this is where this is why Facebook at
or potentially when she get your head around I'm a bit of a gold mine because you can find people that have done
similar actions to what to what they you need them to do to get yours stuff or to like your product con you you can go and
find those interests those people with that value set right exactly so you know
that can be looked at as finding people with affinity for your product but you
know that could be a very passive affinity what you've actually done something in public then you're more
like to follow through yeah so one of the examples as well is is running apps that make you publish what your goal is
they're very popular at the moment I see them a lot on the Facebook feed from my friends or doing that zero that what is
it couch to k or whatever it is yeah exactly yeah yeah and that is you know
psychology of what motivates us suppose yeah it's a very good point it is a very
good point there's also I mean one of the things that I've always it's just
sorry this is what the idea that's popped into my head as you're talking one of the things that I've always said
to clients and I think that you know people should do on their websites is publish their value statement in other
words there's a company there's these are our values this is what we stand for and so this is what we won't do um you
know it's it's it's understanding those those values and why you have them because people like to connect with
people of similar values mm-hm it's it's
it's very rare to connect well with people that don't have the same sort of value set as you I mean you can't do it
I mean you know I you know you joked about being a Liverpool Football Club fan and I am friends with people that
supports a Manchester United but I think you're as a general whole you're I'm
more likely to be friends with or have deeper friendships with people who like Liverpool Football Club for it yep do
you see what I mean so it's that value sir so actually I think and coming back to the niche idea and niche in your
market down so you take someone like Joe Jewett she has a very unique set of values she is very very auntie the way
the beauty industry markets beauty products and she's very vocal about that and these are her values about it
and you either like that or you don't you know it's quite a polarizing thing but the people that like you there's
going to be the consistent message with what they perceive to be valuable is that consistency isn't it no I think
that might also link to one of the next
triggers which is liking okay you you tend to you you you you tend to be
influenced by people that you like who are similar to you but if you you know
if you are engaged with people with the similar values to you and you get them
to say something that says that embosses your point of view then they're more
likely to act based on that belief and and we all start purchasing a product I
think you remark it to those people yeah so so you know asking people to share in
like a content to comment and to endorse you that's that's a really good point
and it's one of the things which I find fascinating and I have no hard and fast
data for this Merrick but I I I have I
have a sort of a feeling and I've not looked at the likes I've not looked at
the data but it is it is a hypothesis that I have and that is if a customer
purchases from you and you contact that customers say would you please write a
review and they write a review of the product on your website or they write a
review of you as a company which you publish on the website they are much more likely to buy from you again mm-hmm
did you see what I mean yes so as well as it being good just to have reviews on
my website the right the reviews tend to be your best customers overall they tend to be the
people which come back time and time again which I you know I and and it's it
is this kind of asking them to post on social media like you say it's this asking them you know write me a review
kind of thing they feel like yeah it just work it's anecdotal I have I have
no science behind what I've just said other than I see what I see it Jersey yeah no I think you're wrong I think
definitely I've used that tactic where we've marketed to people who've just
recently bought the product obviously you use that as a reason to write them
and you're checking in to make sure they're happy and then give it six months or three months and ask them to
do a review and then you publish that review and in some ways I thought that
giving back to them because you're making them making them famous and increasing their personal brand but
you're right they're more likely than two to two to repurchase but the the the
key thing is the more times you are able to engage with people online offline any
kind of activity that's public that shows some kind of endorsement is useful
to drive people closer to that point of purchase yeah no fair enough yeah so you
know capturing that data is really really important right I'm gonna going I'm gonna go and check now why not now
but I'd be one of the things I go and find out so that's number four yup number five all right number five
well it's liking its oh yeah sorry about that no that's okay people prefer to say yes
to those those people that they like and they're in three three important factors that they're similar to us people who
could pass complements and people who cooperate with us to achieve a shared outcome so those are ways think about
so does the MEMS process in those three things so people who are similar to us right that pay as compliments you know
and people that cooperate with us collaborate with us a corporate cooperate with us to achieve a shared
outcome okay so you think about movements for well I mean you're your
friend who in the beauty in is inter
change industry they married you froze you I heard think about your friend in
the beauty industry and then it just froze for about seconds and yeah yep you're back now oh no so there's a
community of people that have the same belief and you're all trying to change the industry then you've got a shared
outcome yeah you're trying to achieve working on this together on you you it's
a collaborative thing in some respects yeah yeah
the example in the book goes back a ways I'm not sure people will even know what
Tupperware parties were thing is I know
exactly what the idea is very simple
right so instead of instead of a door-to-door sales person coming in trying to sell to you directly they get
somebody to invite their friends around and they have a poker party and so now you're not buying from the sales person
you're buying from your friend yeah yeah
so there's number of these triggers happening here because you've got the liking aspect
you've got the social you've got the I think it's the next one the social proof
because all of you are are binds it creates it creates momentum
you've got the consistency because they'll ask you first you know what what products have you
bought and do you like them or not and and you've got rep processor T because
you get you get little gifts so I guess it's like how can you use some of these
tactics online right can you do the Kenny Kenny kind of
maybe do a private online event that you
invite people to but you gets you get a customer to invite their friends yeah
and that customer gets a cut of the profits yeah and so you make it more that they're the one doing the selling
for you really interesting because you've put language to something that
I'll tell you about a feature on the curious digital platform because I think
this fits it and it's a really interesting idea that and we've been playing around with for a little while
so you have your standard affiliate marketing schemes right which is you
know I have the beauty website you sign up you get a code you refer the code to you know your blogging audience you're
an influencer they click the code they buy and you get a percentage cut or you do a YouTube video and they you know are
you quite clear it's an affiliate link click it and your support Channel or whatever ok no problem and that's actually that reciprocity
thing again isn't it use my affiliate link and help support this channel I've doing you a favor giving this content if you're gonna buy this product click that
link doesn't cost you any more but it supports what we're doing hmm and so we've been playing around with
this whole idea of affiliates Plus and until I think of a better name for it
that's what it's going to be called but it's this belief that actually you want
to go back to or people want to go back to the Tupperware party idea it was like how do you make Tupperware how would you
do that in the modern world right how would you do the tip away party well you you would go around to your friend's house you would you would take with you
some samples of the Tupperware and then you would hand out your iPad and everybody would order and then it would all be delivered to their house so
you've not got to carry a load of stock just sort of mean it's just like just yeah put your order through here and
then whenever they go back to that website to buy some more Tupperware you would get a commission again and in
fact you'd be able to see reports who's purchased who hasn't purchased recently you'd be able to email them through the
system to go hey you've not purchased recently here's an offer so become the people marketing because it's their business it's not just an
affiliate scheme anymore you're giving them a chance to build their business amongst their friends and as long as you
you know you you've got a really good product and there's integrity and all that you know coming back to this
authenticity thing mmm I think it's a really fascinating idea and so with the
KD platform that's now built into it so if a brand wants to allow that feature
they can do that where you know you friends are now starting cell with two friends again in the school playground
you can do it with your mobile phone so it is nice yeah I like that yeah so I
mean normal affiliates you know you don't necessarily have a relationship
necessarily with with the platform that
you're clicking through from right I mean what I've noticed for example on YouTube is a lot of youtubers now are
like you just did with the pod with you know with your with your sponsor on monetizing their YouTube channel through
through these kind of sponsorships but you know because YouTube now are kind of these seem to be D monetizing a lot of a
lot of craters yeah they've changed yeah and so they've they've altered their
monetization model whether he sponsors for products that they generally endorse
and talk about why they fit in with that with their own personal values and then
obviously they're asking people to support them by buying their products
following on from that with YouTube I've because YouTube changed the way they did
it what a lot of people did so I'm just think I'm talking to a camera right look at you but I'm talking through a camera
and cameras was a great one when I was researching the camera there's a lot of people on YouTube saying this is you
know the best camera to do you know digital zoom or Skype or webcam and all
that sort of stuff and you click there affiliate link so YouTube wasn't paying them necessarily
anymore for the view so what they did was they set up an affiliate link with say Amazon click through the Amazon you'd order the
camera and then they'd take a few percentage points what people are finding now which I find absolutely fascinating and this has no relevance
other than as funny is interesting because Amazon are no longer shipping products unless they're essential
products that whole side of things seems
to be collapsing so a lot of the youtubers that were getting their income from the affiliate schemes with Amazon
right because of covert that's all shut down or is shutting down and the
youtubers are no longer getting the income from the affiliates because Amma's aren't doing those purchases and
I find that absolutely you know fascinating so they've spent all this time building this Authority in this
brand recognition and getting out there and you know this is now the second
channel from YouTube which seems to have closed down to them so I'm curious to see where the youtubers taking them yep
that's that's gonna be interesting and also once this whole thing changes once
the lockdown lifts how the whole ecosystem will change I mean you know
whether new business models and we'll start we'll start to see new ways of
monetizing as well because thing I think we'll have to I genuinely think we all
have to and I think it's good I genuinely think it's good as much as I like Amazon I think that is too big and
I think they're just too unruly and I think they have too much control and a
lot of people's livelihoods a you know the flick of a switch they just change everything and it is the way yes and yes
it's not it's not a blame game because Amazon's got to protect their own business they've got to do what they've got to do yeah but it's the it's the
little guy at the end that always gets squeezed and so I think I think people have always been reticent to say well
I'll sell these my on my own website do you mean but is you know that's the only
thing you can really control so I wonder if we'll see a big glory for deliberate another word I can't say look ocean yeah
yeah a big increase in that kind of activity where people go I'm going to build the
channel I'm gonna monetize it by getting people to buy from me rather than to buy from Amazon or from a third party
because I can control that I mean I have you know say over that it's a bit more
faff in a bit more hassle but I I think it'll be interesting so just what you
were saying on you on the first example you gave you know I think just the having a brand values that is really
important especially if if it's more personal because I think I think when
you start talking about your company values people can be quite cynical about
it so you've got to make it you've got it come across as really authentic you
have but it's a very very important point I think that's one thing that when you start doing YouTube or podcasting
your values come through you can't hide them gangee exactly you can't people
will relate to that so you know does it does really help but leverage the heart
that the liking trigger no you're right and I think I'm just thinking now I was watching a few videos on YouTube earlier
on him to redo my workshop my hoodie is my hobby is woodwork and I really like
just doing something creative with my hands rather staring at a digital screen on the weekends and I was watching some
videos earlier of some guys he was showing how certain products worked and
rather than linking to Amazon they link through to just an ordinary you know
there's a guy in Birmingham making bench dogs Cola UK I don't know where they're based actually but they referred me to
his websites website wasn't you know no offense to bench dog his websites not brilliant but you know what I was like
I'm totally buying from these guys because one I love the product - I thought the video was fantastic the guy
doing the video was totally authentic I wasn't trying to be something that he wasn't just really authentic so listen I
found this company that makes these things are amazing and let me tell you white dot did this video and I I am much
more likely I've never clicked an Amazon link from a youtuber
because I have this thing I don't want to buy from Amazon but I'm I'm much more likely to buy from a smaller website
this you know with these really interesting videos that have been put on YouTube but I go to those websites go
I'll buy that but that's amazing that's that's I think is is for me is much more appealing because that's I think that
kind of ties in with my brand values to remain in them I don't know interesting point though if
you're you know your stake at the beginning that some of the followers might come from bigger brands and if
you're a bigger brand you've got a bigger issue of how dehumanize your brand if you're a smaller company it's
like easier yeah but that's one of the things that we were talking about a lot when I was to social media Lenovo was
you know using content a humanized brand showing real people who are behind it
who are behind the activities and tools like YouTube and Facebook and tick tock
and can help you help you do that yeah and you know show showing behind the
scenes but bringing the brand till I bring the brand values to life and and
demonstrating rather than just saying yeah this is easy to write a website well your values are but when you can
demonstrate it then it's more authentic yeah no it's true that's true you know I feel like we could go down this rabbit
hole for most long but let's move on to point number six okay yeah the last one
is consensus more social proof so in this world where we're so busy we tend
to look at the actions behaviour of others to the term our own our own
behaviors some science is because we don't to be left behind
we don't to be the odd one out but a lot of the examples I've already given you
know are examples of this so the example that I had with the the charity you know
when one person starts bidding it built a momentum we all start doing it you
know advertising we've used this for ages we're also ties have always said the fastest selling product but online
we do see this a lot if you know especially in travel so if I go to booking calm for example you're looking
at hotel and it'll say you know ten people looking at this hotel right now
yeah I've noticed that people I've if I've connected my facebook profile it'll tell me how many of my friends have
stayed at the same hotel right so that kind of social proof is is is very
useful to Amazon you know you hate them but but Amazon you know I just don't show sorry the factors help it but
Amazon are brilliant at this you know talk about you know products people who
bought this product of all supports but
not just how many of your friends have
bought this products but but rate ratings reviews as well obviously I
think our example of social proof but
there's lots of different ways that we we use those are proof along with other off these triggers and combine them yet
you are tend to drive more business yeah that's a very very good point and it's
like we always say to clients you've got to have at least five reviews per product so you know if you're selling
something online get at least five reviews because it's that social proof aspect of it yeah in fact people are
more likely to buy for product that's got negative reviews than no reviews which is quite fascinating because they
can understand go with a negative review but that's not the reason why I'm getting it so therefore I still bite
it's really fascinating yeah sometimes you look at a negative review that I go
right that person just an angry person yeah right so you're just like yeah I'm
not interested yeah one of the things that I found fascinating and I can't
remember if it was when I Roberts book or another book about the
psychology of influence and this whole idea of consensus and social proof was
this idea that the example that was
given to me was Kitty gfs I think I pronounced her surname wrong but this was a lady in the s who was
murdered on the streets of New York and she was there was about people that
saw her being chased but didn't do anything mm-hmm and they ran a night so some you know
that basically the paper said in New York was the unfriendly a city in the world or some other most uncaring city
in the world and some psychologists went yeah I'm not convinced it's the result of people not caring and it came down to
a number of key instance one of which was social proof ie everybody saw her running through the streets but they
were looking to everybody else to see what to do and how to behave so when I used to work I used to volunteer with
the British Red Cross and we used to go out and do first-aid an emergency first aid I used to go out on the ambulances
it was great fun it was a bit of an adrenaline rush it was great fun not gonna lie and and I remember the first
time I really saw this so a massive effect was I I wasn't even on duty actually I was just driving down this I
was driving down the road and just in front of me like a minute before I arrived on scene there was a big massive
car crash involving like three or four cars so as a first on scene get out of the car and and I I go around to each
car find out what's going on see what's happening and there's a crowd of about people now sort of gathering around
standing and watching but no one was doing anything and because I'd read this
book because I understood this principle inside my head what I had to do was I had to go to different people and say I
I need you to do this and as soon as I said to somebody I want you to do this they went and did it hmm but because they didn't know what to
do so therefore they were looking around at everybody else for this whole social proof no one did anything dude I mean
and you know because people didn't care or I think people were just afraid to do the wrong thing sometimes and so you see this a lot in emergency
first aid where where if social proof is missing ie if there if everybody's
standing there watching you so if you choke in a restaurant for example or you know you're having a heart attack or
whatever don't shout help you point somebody and say please you need to help me because
if you're in a group of people they look around and they tend not just see what I mean yeah and so it's a really it's a really
fascinating experiment that occurred this whole thing of social proof that people look to other people to understand how to behave themselves so I
think I think the kind of opposite of social proof if you like is is is
shaming I think shaming shaming is basically where we are singled out and
excluded from the group ok right and that's if you think Vaughn's ancestors
that could mean life and death I think we have a deep fear of being shamed and
therefore we're looking for consensus before we decide what our actions should
be if we do the wrong thing especially if something really matters yeah we are
at risk of being shamed yeah and I think there's a fear barrier that stops us
acting so I think that's yeah that's maybe where some of the roof comes in so
if you can remove that fear of being shamed for people and build that
consensus of momentum then you can help build your business right that's really
fascinating one of the things about this as well about these about these six
triggers is that it doesn't just work in terms of driving sales with your audience it can also apply to your
business if you're a medium-sized business or big business one of the new
things as well as employee engagement right as part of your marketing
activities is using your employees to actually be the face of your brand and help to amplify your marketing
content so some of these triggers can also be used in terms of driving
employee behavior yeah you reapply it that's very good yeah use it on your
teams yeah or with your teams on your teams is wrong that sounds wrong but you know
that's great hey Merrick listen I really appreciate your time going through it's been a fascinating
conversation I'm just thinking again about the site because it's so easy to get caught up in tactics and it's so
easy to get caught up in the latest thing you know that people are talking about especially in the digital world you know and just taking a step back and
thinking about the fundamentals like the psychology of persuasion is so so good I've had written em down a whole bunch
of ideas that I've got from my own business which is great so really appreciate your time coming here let me
just summarize them one more time so lesson number one reciprocity lesson
number two is scarcity number three was authority number four was consistency
number five was liking and number six is this whole idea of consensus and social
proof six key factors people could obviously find out more by reading the
book which I would encourage you to do it should be on everybody's bookshelf I've read it many times very helpful book but Merrick listen thanks for
bringing that to us how can people connect with you get a hold of you reach you if you want if they if they are so
inclined so I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on Twitter you can find me on Twitter at
metric underscore dose M et Ric underscore do s or we can find me on
LinkedIn just look up Merrick mu y RI CK to Sousa DSO user a there's not many of
us out there so you should find me wisely now we were talking about the the root of your name women before we came
on because it's such an unusual name and so I can't imagine there are actually that many of you which is great please
explain to me metric underscore dos for your Twitter handle I'm not very Majid
of sometimes and when I it was it was
onward he was just the autocorrect every time I type my name in it came up
with metric dos wow that's the best
answer I've heard for a Twitter handle Microsoft Word autocorrect gave it to me
I can't disobey Bill Gates can i no you can't not at all but that was brilliant
Merrick thank you so so much for coming on the show it's been an absolute pleasure and a treat for me to chat to
you I really enjoyed that yeah I hope the listeners I'm sure they have got a lot of stuff out of it and if
you've got any questions for Merrick do reach out to him on LinkedIn or Twitter
and you'll remember his Twitter handle now he's told you that story but Merrick thank you so much thanks thanks much
okay wasn't Merrick fantastic I hope you enjoyed that conversation I know I did
like I said I've taken a whole shitload of notes on what I can do better on my
website a few ideas now buzzing around in my head on what we can do to drive our own e-commerce businesses for you do
reach out to marry because Merrick was a cool guy and had some real interest in wisdom there and I'm sure he'd love to connect with you but it's all that's
left for me to say is thanks for watching if you are still with us on Facebook live I know a few of you are thanks for listening if you're listening
to the on the audio podcast make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcast from we're on iTunes and
stitcher and all of those amazing places and like I say if you're interested come join us on Facebook live just make sure
you like the Matt Edmondson Facebook page just go to facebook-dot-com forward-slash mad at Munson CEO that CEO
as in company not CEO but Matt Edmondson CEO or to set them to the website Matt
Edmondson calm and on there we were when we put the podcast live we will put all the show notes we will link to Merrick
will link to the book that he's been talking through everything will be on the website at Matt Edmondson comm you
will be able to get all your resources from that site it'll be great to see you there more link to the Facebook live
page from there as well so if you want to come join in the conversation on Facebook live you would be more than welcome to do so all that's left for me
to say is that like I say thanks for watching thanks for listening have a great week wherever you are and I will
be back again very very soon with another episode of the curiosity podcast stay safe and we'll speak to you soon
bye for now